How to refuse to share pronouns verbally

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Of course we all use pronouns.

What we mean is that we use the regular sex-based ones which in most cases are bloody obvious from looking at us.

If other people feel that they have a gender identity which doesn't "match" their sex and they want to use non-standard pronouns, it's up to them to ask people to do that.

But forcing everyone else to state "their pronouns" is essentially compelling us to say that we have a gender identity and state what it is.

If you don't have a gender identity you don't need to state your pronouns, in the same way that if you are an atheist you don't need to state whether you are Catholic or Protestant.

To answer your "Do men get asked this?" question, I have once.

Similar situation to you, group thing, all going round in a circle introducing themselves. Asked for name, pronouns, job title/what we do.

Two women went before me, both she/her, then it got to me.

"Hi I'm fdgdfgdfgdfg, I'm a web developer."
The ringleader pipes up "And your pronouns?"
So I look at her like shes just asked what species I was and answer "I'm fairly obviously a bloke"

She promptly moved on to the next person and none of the remaining 10 or so people mentioned their pronouns.

So men do get asked, but I reckon we get let off easier. I think these people think "Oh, he just doesn't get it" but thats not it. We're well aware of all this bullshit, we just think its a load of crap and our privilege lets us get away with ignoring it

Was there paper and pens for people to write their own pronouns if the one they were looking for wasn't available?

I'd have been tempted to write "me/I/my" and stand next to it.

Yeah I think I'd say, "Hi, I'm Sarah and I'm, er, female."

Then if pressed, "I don't have any special pronouns. You can use whatever pronouns you like." polite smile

Trans people got along just fine 5 years ago too without this pronoun nonsense. If anything the situation has gotten worse for trans individuals recently due to all these people campaigning and being offended on their behalf.

If you saw a trans woman, you would refer to them as "she" out of politeness, to ask what their pronouns are would be to state that you know that they're trans and not doing a good job of it. Asking for pronouns is actually transphobic.

Plus there is now a growing demand in the corporate world for everyone to announce their pronouns at every meeting. Seriously if you are on the clock you're burning a lot of money going through these introductions and doesn't show much confidence in decisiveness.

Pronouns are just common sense, asking for them just makes people look a bit dim.

This.

I'd also point out that it is counterproductive for everyone to declare pronouns. As humans our brains are very good at recognising patterns and then performing "shortcuts" once the pattern is established.

If we get used to most people using pronouns traditionally our brains are more likely to skip over those making atypical pronouns.

"Hang on a minute, have I read this right - you guys don't use pronouns?"
I do, I use the pronouns, 'I' and 'me' to refer to myself.

"So do your friends and family always refer to you as 'she' or 'her' they literally say your name every single time they talk about you?"

I actually don't know or care how my friends and family refer to me. It's not something I'm super concerned with.

"More likely, what you find offensive about it is the idea that the person can't tell what pronouns you go by from looking at you. Well, the reality is that they can't. The people talking to you do not know what you want to be called unless you tell them. It's not an offensive question, any more than asking you if you go by a nickname."

I'm not offended at all. The reality is that in the vast majority of cases people have the pronouns that align with their sex.

"Presumably you want to use the occasion to posture about trans views."
I don't want to posture about trans views, but I certainly want to make it clear that I don't want to play along with the pronoun game nor do I believe in the gender stuff. I feel very much like it's being invited to pray against my will. It's an ideology I don't subscribe to.

I don't dictate on grammar matters outside of work.

Have you seen the article referred to here on the board today by a NB writer, talking about how over use and over enthusiasm regarding pronouns by those who did not need to be but want to do so out of really, virtue signalling and doing the new fashionable 'look how cool I am' thing rather than any sincere interest or care, has made them thoroughly dispirited about the whole situation and to just want people to stop and use their name instead?

It's not a bandwagon. It's not a game for progressive people to play. Those for whom it is relevant can be supported to share them. Performative activities like 'lets all demonstrate our coolness (and politics) by stating our pronouns' are not helpful. And as mentioned on thread: this pressurises everyone to state their position or lie to avoid criticism, and would affect a TQ+ questioning person as much as someone who just is not comfortable participating in really rather questionable political games.

Do you actually care about the values and principles and people involved? Or just about a quick purity check while demonstrating your own cool status?

Hi My name is X, I don’t dictate how others should refer to me when I’m not around, I don’t have that kind of ego.

'I think you know what my pronouns are' :)

I'm not possessive about pronouns.

This idea that we have pronoun ownership is a very recent linguistic development in the English language.

Until very recently we would use the pronoun that corresponded with the sex we perceived the person to be. With transwomen and transmen we would either perceive them as women or men, or recognise that is how they wish to be perceived and probably be polite. It is only with the rise of the "non-binary thems this has become an issue.

Incidentally in your two examples the first I would use names and would consider your phrasing rude/abrupt. the second I would use name and drop the second pronoun.

‘More likely, what you find offensive about it is the idea that the person can't tell what pronouns you go by from looking at you. Well, the reality is that they can't. The people talking to you do not know what you want to be called unless you tell them. It's not an offensive question, any more than asking you if you go by a nickname.’

What I find offensive about it is that that’s a lie. I’m obviously female. Not a single person in my forty-odd years of life has ever treated me as if they think I’m male. The pretence otherwise offends me. I don’t believe in gender identity. The assumption that I am obligated to participate in someone else’s belief system also offends me.

Based on my sex......same as my oppression. Smile and walk away ☺

I guess what you all want to do by refusing is resist the trend to using pronouns in weird ways.

Again, no. You make a lot of assumptions, Agatha. They are not accurate. What I want to do is not to take part in a system that posits an innate 'gender identity'. Other people's choices have fuck all to do with me.

I would say my name and if relevant my role/job title. If I was then asked what my pronouns are I would ask ‘why?’ and leave it to them to explain.

AgathaAllAlong, I'm curious, what would you recommend a gender atheist answer when the pronouns issue comes up?

'most people have pronouns, it's weird to refuse to disclose them.'

So - you acknowledge that some people do not have pronouns? Are they 'weird'?

@BootsAndRoots But 5 years ago people didn't use non-sex based pronouns. Now they do, so there is this new need to ask people for their pronouns.

Don't get me wrong, I don't care what people call me and I also don't believe in the gender stuff. But I don't think pronouns is offensive. We all use pronouns, the only difference is now some people use them in weird ways, so some people like to ask and make sure they don't get it wrong. But pronouns themselves have not suddenly become offensive.

I guess what you all want to do by refusing is resist the trend to using pronouns in weird ways. I don't think that me refusing to tell people I go by 'she' will stop others trying to identify out of their gender (and I also don't care about trying to stop them doing this, but I guess at least some of you here would like to).

Yes. But just as I have no wish to upset someone who is religious and believes that I ought to share that religion, I don't want to get into a big theological debate over whether or not I accept Jesus Christ as my personal saviour when we're just going round introducing ourselves.

I just don't really want to say 'amen'.

No, your presumptions are completely wrong.

I struggle with this because it's hard to balance my own beliefs and moral judgements and decisions with being polite and conciliatory.

Were I to be wanting to posture about 'trans' issues I'd have far more to say.

I actually have no wish to upset anyone; I don't care if others wish to declare their pronouns. The problem is that I find it immensely upsetting to be prompted to mouth a belief I do not uphold. In fact, I find that belief damaging and dangerous, particularly to women.

how is it 'refusing to disclose' pronouns? It's not a state secret. Pronouns are based on other people's perceptions, they're not even mine to give or control.

But if everyone announced their star signs then their usage would become more normalised and everyone would do this. This is about normalising a new ideology after all, and about making everyone feel OK for announcing their star sign.

I fail to see how the human race has had thousands of years of dialogue, but suddenly in the past 5 years no one is able to have a conversation with someone else without "knowing" someone's pronouns.

If you feel the need to ask for pronouns, ask yourself how you managed without this 5 years ago.