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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How to refuse to share pronouns verbally

242 replies

EthelbertaChickerel · 23/06/2022 10:18

I'm going to a course tomorrow, and have just received an email from the course leader. This includes her pronouns, and I'm now concerned we will all be asked to share them verbally when the day starts.

If it is just writing them on badges, I will leave it blank, but I don't know how big the group is, and I am worried that if it is small, we will be asked to introduce ourselves and share pronouns. I'm fine with the introductions, just not with the pronouns.

What is the best, but most polite, way to shut this down? I have paid quite a lot of money for this day and want to get as much out of it as possible, but am not happy to compromise my principles.

TL:DR - I love the Mumsnet standard 'my pronouns are sex-based, like my oppression', and would be happy to put that in an email, but not sure about saying it.
Does anyone have any alternatives?

OP posts:
Oblomov22 · 23/06/2022 16:51

I'd think I'd say " Actually I don't find declaring my pronouns necessary. Please just use my name".

I like that. This pronoun bullshit really gets my goat.

AgathaAllAlong · 23/06/2022 16:49

Ok I see. Thanks to everyone for explaining what you dislike about it. This was very helpful -

I actually have no wish to upset anyone; I don't care if others wish to declare their pronouns. The problem is that I find it immensely upsetting to be prompted to mouth a belief I do not uphold. In fact, I find that belief damaging and dangerous, particularly to women.

@Braggiography I do think my assumptions were wrong. I thought that the resistance was due to not liking the gender ideology movement. But it seems to be that people on this thread think that you should not compel others to use certain pronouns, because as a matter of linguistics pronouns are for others to decice, and not the person that those pronouns refer to. I don't know about that, I think I'd be peeved if people were calling me 'they'. But it at least makes sense to me.

Also yes, to answer your question from earlier - I do think that people who think of themselves as pronounless are "weird"!

Ohsugarhoneyicetea · 23/06/2022 16:44

I haven't decided what my pronouns are yet, as Ive been working on my adjectives. Brilliant, witty, engaging, stunning and brave are the key words. Im mandating their use in any and all discussions about me where I am not present. And particularly in any kind of performance review. I'll be circulating a document later with the comprehensive list. Any deviations will be regarded as a hate crime.

Snog · 23/06/2022 16:41

Don't give any pronouns and if questioned say "I really don't mind" or "I can't commit to that" or "I find that intrusive/insensitive"

Biscuitsneeded · 23/06/2022 16:35

Say 'Hello, I'm Jane'. And stop there and look firmly at the next person. I think they would have to be pretty dreadfully woke to press you for them if it's obvious you've finished speaking and don't wish to specify pronouns. If they are daft enough to follow up, just say 'I'm female' pointedly.

DotDotaDash · 23/06/2022 16:35

Pamela, shoe size 5, non practicing Christian, pescatarian, parent of two cockers and a goldfish …. Oh sorry guess you know me pretty well now hope that covers it, looking forward to learning about course subject

Thejoyfulstar · 23/06/2022 16:30

'Em, I'm a woman, so....she/her?' while looking as if you have been asked the most ridiculous, stupid question with the most obvious answer. Look around the room as if you are wondering if it's some kind of joke. Extra points for confused shrug. Finish it off by whispering loudly, faux offended, to the person beside you, 'why did they ask me that, do I look like a man!?'

AclowncalledAlice · 23/06/2022 16:27

"Hi I'm Alice. Please respect my right not to use pronouns and refer to me by my name. Thankyou"

newrubylane · 23/06/2022 16:22

If pushed I'd probably say 'I leave it up to others to refer to me however they feel is appropriate . It's worked fine up until now.'

CriticalCondition · 23/06/2022 16:21

Playing along with the idea that there is some sort of sexed “soul” that differs from a person’s sex is a religious view.

I like this way of putting it very much.

FemmeNatal · 23/06/2022 16:18

AgathaAllAlong · 23/06/2022 13:43

Hang on a minute, have I read this right - you guys don't use pronouns? So do your friends and family always refer to you as 'she' or 'her' they literally say your name every single time they talk about you?

Perhaps you don't want to answer because you are nonbinary and don't want to disclose this.

More likely, what you find offensive about it is the idea that the person can't tell what pronouns you go by from looking at you. Well, the reality is that they can't. The people talking to you do not know what you want to be called unless you tell them. It's not an offensive question, any more than asking you if you go by a nickname.

Presumably you want to use the occasion to posture about trans views. So you could always say "my pronouns are female, like my sex" ... but most people have pronouns, it's weird to refuse to disclose them.

also they almost certainly will not ask. loads of people have them in emails, but would not ask you.

Pronouns in English are based on a person’s sex, and yes, you can tell a person’s sex when you meet them.

Playing along with the idea that there is some sort of sexed “soul” that differs from a person’s sex is a religious view.

OhSister · 23/06/2022 16:17

Jane: Hi, I'm Jane. Really happy to be here with you all.

<looks expectantly at next person>

facilitator: 'and your pronouns?'

Jane: Oh. As you can probably tell, I'm a woman.

facilitator: 'so, is it she/her?'

Jane: Well, the words you use are up to you.

<looks expectantly at next person again>

icelolly12 · 23/06/2022 16:09

"Hmmm I've not decided, can you come back to me later"

1000Pieces · 23/06/2022 16:01

AgathaAllAlong · 23/06/2022 14:02

@BootsAndRoots But 5 years ago people didn't use non-sex based pronouns. Now they do, so there is this new need to ask people for their pronouns.

Don't get me wrong, I don't care what people call me and I also don't believe in the gender stuff. But I don't think pronouns is offensive. We all use pronouns, the only difference is now some people use them in weird ways, so some people like to ask and make sure they don't get it wrong. But pronouns themselves have not suddenly become offensive.

I guess what you all want to do by refusing is resist the trend to using pronouns in weird ways. I don't think that me refusing to tell people I go by 'she' will stop others trying to identify out of their gender (and I also don't care about trying to stop them doing this, but I guess at least some of you here would like to).

You don't get to tell other people what they should say..
If people want to refer to me as "he" or "they", let them. It's no skin off my nose.

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 23/06/2022 15:57

*saveforthat
I'm still angry from a course I went to a couple of weeks ago where the ice breaker was to get up from your desk and stand next to your pronoun (hand made paper signs).

Was there paper and pens for people to write their own pronouns if the one they were looking for wasn't available?

I'd have been tempted to write "me/I/my" and stand next to it"*

I'd have been tempted to write "fuck/off" and stand next to it.

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 23/06/2022 15:57

By the way I've been to events where what is your star sign is an icebreaker, I've answered. Tell you what though - one deeply relgious person did refuse to, on the basis that it went against their relgion because they didn't believe in star signs. And let me tell you, it was not the people answering who came across like the ideology fanatic.

Asking star signs is laughable. I would think anyone who did that was too silly to be taken seriously.

moofolk · 23/06/2022 15:56

Or my fave 'I'm not bothered about pronouns but my adjectives are [hardcore / badass]'

moofolk · 23/06/2022 15:56

'No thank you'.

If pushed on it, say that you don't want to put people in a situation where they feel they have to make a decision to share their identity in case they are not ready.

And also that the whole thing is bullshit

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 23/06/2022 15:51

but I might say "ask him to pass it to her"

How rude and abrupt. I wouldn't say that.

I would say "ask Bob to pass it to Sara".

BigSkies2022 · 23/06/2022 15:31

What about just stating your name and if asked further say, 'What do you mean, pronouns?' And if asked again, say, 'Why would you ask that?' Just keep looking blank, slightly puzzled but polite.

I mean, there is a limit to how much time a facilitator is going to want to spend on explaining their decision to adopt a rather poorly-thought-through bit of ideology in the introduction session.

Icansleep · 23/06/2022 15:25

Lindy2 · 23/06/2022 10:24

I'd think I'd say " Actually I don't find declaring my pronouns necessary. Please just use my name".

I like this too

nightwakingmoon · 23/06/2022 15:08

@AgathaAllAlong I don’t “have” pronouns. They don’t belong to me — they’re simply features of language. I don’t own language. Neither does anyone else….

— As I said recently on another thread, my increasingly preferred option is just to say (as a very obviously female person who dresses in a very “feminine” way) “my pronouns are he/him” and move on without batting an eyelid. It’s just as nonsensical as all the rest of it and no-one can possibly challenge it without looking like they are being transphobic — or they just think that they have heard wrong. Anyone from HR tries to complain you aren’t taking it seriously? Either tell them your gender identity is very sensitive or just say “oh sorry I didn’t really understand what we were being asked to do.”

The beauty of it is that it usefully points up the total idiocy of it all whilst still apparently playing “within the rules”. After all, I think I have quite a masculine personality as a lesbian who takes no shit at work; why shouldn’t I try out identifying as a man every so often? Maybe I’ll get paid the same as my male colleagues! That would be a bonus! 😃

Am also looking forward to hearing myself described as “he/him” for the first time 👍

PomegranateOfPersephone · 23/06/2022 15:02

Maybe some of us don’t want to play the pronouns circle game as some of us don’t want to participate in or normalise narcissistic behaviours…

PomegranateOfPersephone · 23/06/2022 15:00

It isn’t that we don’t use pronouns simply that we don’t demand that others use particular pronouns about us. We accept that each individual has his or her own perceptions about us (correctly perceiving our sex 99.9% of the time) which is a lot less weird than telling people to ignore their own perceptions and suspend their judgments. Also I reckon most of us don’t feel that our existence is threatened by people forming their own opinions of us because most of us are not narcissists with a fragile false self to protect. Therefore most of us won’t fly into a narcissistic rage if we are taken for something we are not.

MsMarvellous · 23/06/2022 14:58

"No thanks. I don't have a gender identity."

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