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Original poster

That GC grenade that I chucked at work...

82 replies

CraggyIslandTouristBoard · 20/06/2022 22:54

I previously posted how I sent a long anonymous email to my work (London law firm), querying their transitioning policy. In particular, the fact that it would allow a male colleague who decides to transition immediately to use the women's toilets, showers and changing rooms. (Unfortunately my thread was deleted as MN weren't happy that I had set up a new account to post it, and also I referred to 'trans identifying males' which is terminology not allowed by MN, just FYI).

I asked if they had done an equality impact assessment to consider the impact on women generally (and also women from particular backgrounds, and female survivors of domestic abuse and sexual assault). I also asked them if they would publicly confirm that anyone who harassed someone for expressing respectful GC views would be dealt with according to the firm's disciplinary policy (the transitioning policy says anyone harassing someone because they are transgender would be disciplined). I included lots of links/references to the Equality Act, the EAT judgment in Forstater, EHRC guidance etc, questioned the appropriateness of following Stonewall advice etc.

I submitted the question to be answered in the annual firmwide forum, which is taking place this week, and which allows people to submit questions to senior management.

In the meantime I have had the below response from our head of D&I (who on the whole I like and respect, but we are signed up to the Stonewall Diversity Bllcks so that respect only goes so far...)

"We carry out a rolling review of our policies. This one has not been looked at since November 2020 and it is therefore due for a fresh review.

I will make sure that it is included in the next round of reviews that we undertake. We recognise that this conversation has evolved since then, and is continuing to evolve, and we will take the points you have raised into consideration in the course of our review.

I am sorry to hear that you felt you could not raise these issues other than on an anonymous basis.

I can assure you that there is no intention to prioritise one set of views over another and if, at some point in the future, you feel that you might be comfortable to have a confidential conversation with me to discuss your concerns, please do not hesitate to contact me."

Hats off to them for managing to turn it into a bit of a damp squib. 🙄But I will keep a beady eye and if they have done nothing within the next 3 months I will start agitating again. Ditto if they come up with some crap along the lines that they will deal with the question of which toilet etc facilities can be used by a transitioning person on a case by case basis (the most cowardly way to fudge it, no transparency at all). I'm hoping in the meantime we might get something helpful about what a sh*t shower Stonewall are in the Allison Bailey ET ruling, though I've no idea when that's expected.

And at the forum meeting this week my prediction is they'll just summarise the question, say they are reviewing the policy and move on, but I will let you know!

OP posts:
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/08/2022 00:44

I was going to start agitating again at my firm come the autumn if the policy still hasn’t been updated, or if it has and is still ignoring sex based rights. In short, it is perfectly lawful to have single sex changing rooms and toilets and to exclude all trans women, even those with a GRC, but there is no clear right to demand single sex spaces. There are arguments you can make about discrimination against women though.

Yes, will look forward to your update!

UseOfWeapons · 07/08/2022 16:50

Brilliant letter, Op!
I have shamelessly made a copy, as I have recently experienced unisex toilets in one NHS hospital that I work in, and think it’ll be mission creep to the other.
Will be watching your thread with interest and hope!💐

Original poster
CraggyIslandTouristBoard · 07/08/2022 16:16

Lawyerontherun22 · 07/08/2022 14:42

Hi @Artichokeleaves
Just to say that I have also queried sex v gender in my own law firm (which did not go down well!)
I am going to try to find your original letter and read through this form and SexMatters to get more info on the legal position but would love to hear where you got to, or if you know of any other useful resources.

PS. I name changed for this post - am in slight a panic that I have gone too far at work!

Hi @Lawyerontherun22 it was me (rather than the endlessly wise @Artichokeleaves ) who wrote the letter that I think you’re referring to, to my law firm. The last I heard was that the transitioning policy was in any event due for review but it was far from clear which way the firm would go. Interesting how in the intervening weeks we’ve had the Forstater and Bailey ET judgments (plus announcement of Tavistock GIDS closure) all of which have shone more sunlight on Stonewall and called into question their credibility.

I was going to start agitating again at my firm come the autumn if the policy still hasn’t been updated, or if it has and is still ignoring sex based rights. In short, it is perfectly lawful to have single sex changing rooms and toilets and to exclude all trans women, even those with a GRC, but there is no clear right to demand single sex spaces. There are arguments you can make about discrimination against women though.

Happy to compare notes if you want to pm me - I was contacted by a senior lawyer at another firm about it, there are a few of us trying to do our bit!

OP posts:
Lawyerontherun22 · 07/08/2022 14:42

Hi @Artichokeleaves
Just to say that I have also queried sex v gender in my own law firm (which did not go down well!)
I am going to try to find your original letter and read through this form and SexMatters to get more info on the legal position but would love to hear where you got to, or if you know of any other useful resources.

PS. I name changed for this post - am in slight a panic that I have gone too far at work!

catandcoffee · 24/06/2022 11:22

Brilliant letter OP.
👍

AtrociousCircumstance · 24/06/2022 11:11

Yes succinctly put @Artichokeleaves

TheBiologyStupid · 24/06/2022 10:49

Very well said, Artichoke.

Artichokeleaves · 24/06/2022 10:39

Hearach15 · 23/06/2022 22:34

Good for your work for doing everything they can to make trans people feel comfortable when they transition. That is a very stressful time for them and I'm sure having such a supportive work environment will help enormously. 😍

You know it isn't the job of female people to make trans people feel comfortable at their own expense? It's not the birthright of females to put male people first.

You do also know that female people need access to loos too? Including the disabled ones, the traumatised ones, the survivors of DV and DA, the ones with cultures and faiths that mean they can't access mixed spaces? And that it isn't the job of females to lose access to any facility so that a trans person can feel really comfortable choosing from all the facilities? That's going to be pretty stressful for those females isn't it? Should the TW spare any reciprocal care and consideration for them, or is it a sex based 'female people should put male people first' thing?

AtrociousCircumstance · 23/06/2022 23:07

Ah well hopefully that poster will return to clarify they weren’t being creepy and underhand and in fact do support women’s rights and acknowledge that a great deal of trans activism is aggressively misogynistic…

AlisonDonut · 23/06/2022 23:03

AtrociousCircumstance · 23/06/2022 23:01

(Gently) you’re missing the point here. The concern is for the erosion of women’s rights and the silencing of women around these issues. I’m sure you support Sarah’s fight against SN? The issues are more complex than just #bekind.

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No, they are deliberately missing the point to make another one, and being really, really creepy about it.

AtrociousCircumstance · 23/06/2022 23:01

Hearach15 · 23/06/2022 22:34

Good for your work for doing everything they can to make trans people feel comfortable when they transition. That is a very stressful time for them and I'm sure having such a supportive work environment will help enormously. 😍

(Gently) you’re missing the point here. The concern is for the erosion of women’s rights and the silencing of women around these issues. I’m sure you support Sarah’s fight against SN? The issues are more complex than just #bekind.

Hearach15 · 23/06/2022 22:34

Good for your work for doing everything they can to make trans people feel comfortable when they transition. That is a very stressful time for them and I'm sure having such a supportive work environment will help enormously. 😍

TheBiologyStupid · 22/06/2022 23:21

Thanks for the update, Craggy - fingers crossed for a good outcome in due course.

Original poster
CraggyIslandTouristBoard · 22/06/2022 22:47

Thanks all.

So, the town hall took place today. They had had a lot of questions on a lot of subjects - many they just lumped together and dealt with in the round. The head of D&I spoke about a couple of things (mainly D&I targets they've set themselves including on the mahoosive "gender" gap in the partnership - wonder how the stats would look if a male partner decided to transition..? 🤔)

Then she came onto my question which she summarised to the extent of making it virtually meaningless: "We've had a question about the firm's transitioning policy, it is quite topical and I will be reviewing it. If anyone has any thoughts on it do contact me and I'll be back in touch when I've had a chance to review it and will keep you informed of how that develops."

I actually suspect a sizeable chunk of the firm won't even know what the "transitioning policy" is and won't ever have read it. But hopefully the ears of any GC colleagues may just have pricked up...

I don't doubt they will do some kind of review and probably make some tweaks, but as long as we're still in thrall to Stonewall I'm not sure how much hope I hold out. (That said, we've not totally bought into the Stonewall dogma - no email pronouns, no virtue signalling rainbow flags, our eg maternity policy does refer to mothers and the like, so you never know).

I think for now I'm going to give it a couple of months to wait and see what they come up with, and will then consider agitating further.

In the meantime I've been lobbying my MP (2 emails and a DM on twitter and still no replies! Apparently she thinks it's fine for convicted male-bodied rapists to be moved to women's prisons). I am also looking at doing some stirring against law firm Reed Smith which is disgracefully acting on a pro bono basis for Survivors Network Brighton in the case brought against it by rape victim Sarah (for those who aren't familiar with it, Sarah is a victim of child sexual abuse and then rape as an adult, and is suing Survivors Network for discrimination for refusing to provide a women-only support group - she was forced to share her experiences in front of a male-bodied attendee of a women's group who had the choice of attending a trans group and/or a man's group). So the campaign continues!

I will update you with any developments at work....

OP posts:
VortexofBloggery · 22/06/2022 21:54

Fantastic work, Go Craggy!!

TheBiologyStupid · 22/06/2022 18:57

JamieFrasersBigSwingingKilt · 22/06/2022 18:16

I'm so pleased you started this thread @CraggyIslandTouristBoard. I had wondered why your last one disappeared. I think your letter is excellent. Fingers crossed for the town hall - and beyond. Looking forward to the update.

+1

JamieFrasersBigSwingingKilt · 22/06/2022 18:16

I'm so pleased you started this thread @CraggyIslandTouristBoard. I had wondered why your last one disappeared. I think your letter is excellent. Fingers crossed for the town hall - and beyond. Looking forward to the update.

becausetrampslikeus · 22/06/2022 15:34

If genitals are irrelevant that why don't trans people just pee in the correct sex bathroom ?

VestofAbsurdity · 22/06/2022 15:30

Katypyee · 21/06/2022 00:12

Trans women (just like trans men) just want to go about their lives without people (women) thinking they are trans just to molest women in bathrooms. Trans women need to pee too. The fact that you (and many posters here) are so invested in people's genitals speaks volumes.

Not invested in other people's genitals at all, that would TRA's who constantly bring up genitals and the idea of a genital police.

Invested in the SEX people are, the one they are born and can NEVER change no matter what cosmetic, chemical or surgical alterations they do or don't make. Absolutely NOTHING stopping transwomen from peeing, there are perfect readily available facilities for them - they are the ones that align with their SEX - the Mens/Male options, piece of piss really.

Spaces and services that are designated on the basis of SEX to remain that way, that's what I am invested in.

JuneJubilee · 22/06/2022 13:06

RenegadeMatron · 21/06/2022 01:27

Women just want to go about their lives without having to worry about male-bodied people in their single sex spaces.

Male-bodied people (previously known as ‘men’) are overwhelmingly responsible for violence against women - and they don’t come with labels, so we don’t know which ones are which. This means, we don’t like it when they push our boundaries and come into our single-sex (not gender) spaces. This includes, but is not limited to, bathrooms, changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons, and sports.

I know women’s discomfort is really annoying and inconvenient for transwomen.

But it’s not going to go away, and so we are going to continue to advocating for women. No apologies.

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@Katypyee

Thanks @RenegadeMatron well said!!

Illegallyblonder · 22/06/2022 12:56

Well done OP. I recently had a conversation at work with someone about equality data and he said "we're collecting data about men and women but of course that could change" and I said "well frankly, I hope not" and he smiled and said quite.

TheBiologyStupid · 21/06/2022 23:23

RenegadeMatron · 21/06/2022 01:27

Women just want to go about their lives without having to worry about male-bodied people in their single sex spaces.

Male-bodied people (previously known as ‘men’) are overwhelmingly responsible for violence against women - and they don’t come with labels, so we don’t know which ones are which. This means, we don’t like it when they push our boundaries and come into our single-sex (not gender) spaces. This includes, but is not limited to, bathrooms, changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons, and sports.

I know women’s discomfort is really annoying and inconvenient for transwomen.

But it’s not going to go away, and so we are going to continue to advocating for women. No apologies.

Show quote history

Brilliantly put, Renegade!

AlisonDonut · 21/06/2022 17:31

Bunce.

wibdib · 21/06/2022 17:28

Great letter op. Missed it first time around but reading it now, it reminded me that it might also be worth having the name of Phillip/Pip Dibdob** to hand as a way of furthering the questions and understanding of the situation, as some days he identifies as a man and others as a trans woman - so no getting into discussions about whether or not someone is 'real' because obviously part of the time Phillip/Pip is not.

** Can't remember his surname but hopefully others here will; seem to remember he got listed as one of the 100 Women of the Year in the City (or similar) a couple of years ago, which didn't go down well here. But as they are high profile and in the city, but not in your firm, they could provide a useful additional discussion point!

RogersOrganismicProcess · 21/06/2022 17:17

Superb letter 👏

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