J Lo’s daughter

I see it as someone telling you their name is say Sarah and you be like "no, I'm not calling you that, I' m going to call you Julie instead. Then keep calling them it even though they have told you it's not. You'd find them rude and a bit weird, would you not?

Nonsense. We are all entitled to our own names. We aren't entitled to our own special grammatical rules, just as we're not entitled to give words a new definition and demand that the rest of the world stop using the standard definition.

late

Slightly off topic but I feel bad for celebrities' children in particular going through this, as, if they do abandon their 'new' gender identify at some stage people are never going to accept it.

Yep, R. Kelly's daughter has had trouble with that.

R. Kelly’s Child, Jaah, Went Public as Trans. Now 18 Explains She Was a Lesbian

Slightly off topic but I feel bad for celebrities' children in particular going through this, as, if they do abandon their 'new' gender identify at some stage people are never going to accept it.

e.g. Brad Pitt and Angelina's daughter, Shiloh. Complete randoms who have never met her "transed" her from the age of 5 onwards, without her or her family ever confirming anything other than her liking to wear boys clothes for a few years as a pre-teen, to the point where they hurled abuse at anyone calling her by her given name, as dead-naming her because her name was actually John (a nn she went by when she was about 8 that Angelina mentioned once in one interview!). Despite the fact that her actual family never stopped calling her Shiloh or suggested that she identified as anything other than a girl who liked having short hair and being "one of the boys" (unsurprising given she has 3 brothers). Now she's 15 and dressing in a typically feminine way again there are hundreds of clickbaity articles discussing her gender identity....again all based on NO ACTUAL EVIDENCE other than a pre-teen appearing to be a bit of a tomboy for a few years, like millions of other girls.

I’m dealing with the same professional issue, albeit in a mixed school - 95% of those transing are FTM, mostly ‘he’ pronouns requested, with a couple of ‘theys’ and some who use ‘he’/ ‘they’. Some parents are not onboard with the name / pronoun changes; most are because the students are 16+ and will do what they want to and are not as influenced by parents.

I am GC but will use preferred names and pronouns. However, it is a source of personal conflict for me and something I think about a lot. I’m very concerned at the number of transing girls with MH issues who are also neurodiverse and how this has snowballed in the last two years , in particular.

To them it wouldn't be any different than accepting that in English 'you' can be relating to one person or many.
you’re assuming that those speaking English as a second, third, or fourth (or more) language are learning it rather than have been speaking it for a while.

I think really the point I was trying to make is while it doesn’t matter for those that communicate with ease, it really DOES impact those that don’t. so while I get you hadn’t appreciated the difficulty you might be causing, now you do, suggesting further impairing an already disabled person because you can’t be bothered to use names instead of inaccurate pronouns to me is far more unempathetic than using conventional sex linked pronouns.

I see it as more like someone tells you that theyre 25 when they're clearly about 40, or someone or someone tells you they're 18 when they look about 15. In most circumstsnces I would think they are eithet deluded or deliberately lying, but I wouldn't bother to challenge it. But in some circumstances it would matter that they aren't what they say they are so I would need to challenge it, e.g. sorry you're too young to enter this nightclub/too old to receive the reduced rate of membership fees.

Calling someone by a different name is no big deal, but calling a male by female pronouns suggests you acknowledge them as a woman. We can't choose our pronouns any more than we can choose our age

I wouldn't add non native speakers here, even though I've seen them mentioned often in these discussions.
To them it wouldn't be any different than accepting that in English 'you' can be relating to one person or many.
And also these changes are happening in their native languages too, so not sure why people think it would be in anyway confusing.

@aweegc

Non binary does NOT necessarily mean transgender.

Others equate being nonbinary with being transgender, i.e. identifying with a gender other than the one you were assigned at birth. Are nonbinary people trans? Some nonbinary people feel this definition applies to them, but others don’t.

And are you aware that disability is, in English law, a protected characteristic; and that gender identity is not?

That seems a strange point to raise in the context of a conversation about people whose impairments make coping with pronouns difficult. Do you think people with autism are being « cruel » when they do not get this « right »?

But I don’t believe in gender so sex based pronouns are the only ones I could use without it going against my beliefs.

Probably not, but we also shouldn't intentionally describe trans people by the wrong gender, and yet people do, purely to be cruel as far as I can tell.

I’m sure you would, but We shouldn’t be putting extra barriers in the way of people who already experience considerable disadvantage in accessing education, employment and social life.

Where did I say that they were?

Thats easy to say when its not your kid.

Absolutely this.

I don’t use preferred pronouns as they are an extension of a belief system that I do not subscribe to, that I consider to be harmful to women and children and gay people.

It’s the same as me not observing other religious practices, because I do not subscribe to that particular religion. It isn’t kind, or respectful, to expect people to say or do things they don’t believe in. That includes pronouns.

This is nothing to do with relationships. It’s about a woman’s worth being based on how fuckable she is by the majority of men.

Some posts on this thread remind me of this article.

My Life As A Sex Object by Jessica Valenti

It’s commonplace in the autistic community as is a preference (increased frequency) of using names instead of pronouns. You may find your niece does it so seamlessly you just have never noticed.

Not everyone is in heterosexual relationships

Oh give over. No one is really this daft.

I've never met someone like this. So, the win win comment was in relation to what I experience in my life..

My niece is autistic and doesn't struggle with it, but I'm sure if she did I'd do what I could to help.

You appear to have forgotten that we are talking about a child

I knew you had trouble with the concept of what a woman was and thought males should be treated as women. I didn't realise you were now fully behind treating female children like women too.

It seems likely that the regime required to hero that going into your 50s is quite extreme - wouldn’t blame the kid for being a bit repelled by all that