Fina stops transgender swimmers from competing in women's elite events

Just when I thought they'd privatized good news. 😁👏

I think it’s always useful to point out the difference in Phelps’s medal winning performances between Phelps and his fellow male athletes and Phelps and female athletes.

And of course, Phelps only retains one of his 5 LC world records now (400m IM).

I learned that India hadn’t properly understood the paper that India was quoting from, otherwise India would have known that 2/3rds of the participants that India was claiming took part were excluded. Nor did India explain any of the limitations in the research which makes it problematic when extrapolating to elite sports. India also forgot the bit in the paper that explains the skeletal advantages conferred by male puberty that are not mitigated by gender affirming hormone treatment.

fallon

Exactly. There’s absolutely no way of predicting a 10 year old male will be good enough to beat elite adult females.

A lot of work has gone into talent identification for swimming. The vast majority of Olympic medal winners only start winning post puberty. Only the best of the best of the best are winners at junior level and win Olympic medals.

Let’s say you have a 10 year old boy who is a brilliant swimmer. Most coaches know that it means nothing if he doesn’t go through the “right” male puberty to be competitive against men: will he grow enough, mainly.

So how do you predict that the good 10 year old boy, without puberty, will be good enough to beat women at the elite level? He will still need to have the physical characteristics common among elite women athletes. You can’t control or predict that at 10, so what characteristics in 10 year olds do you need? Genetics? Coaching set up? Time to train? All while this boy is dealing with the effects of puberty blockers, then oestrogen?

This would be a 10-15 year cheating project with no way of predicting at the start that you’re onto a sure thing. Most countries who cheat regularly can cheat much more efficiently to win medals than that.

Thank you Lia, you beauty!

Fallon Fox has a nerve talking about violence. He's probably just worried his days of punching women with impunity in the ring are nearing an end.

The 'transition before 12' is a magnificant wee piece of unintended irony from FINA. Any kid who's been on growth stunters before even entering puberty would be too disabled to compete at any level at all, let alone elite.

All in all, excellent news, and any attempts TRAs make to argue back involve twisting themselves in logical knots. Sanity is finally prevailing.

That would be for men to agree to. I mean I don't see it happening but maybe if they shout be kind and bigot at all the men?

‘There will be no appetite for petite fragile biological males in elite sports.’

We would be talking about a unicorn occurrence - a young male person so talented that someone recognised their elite potential, but then for some reason decided to pressure them into transitioning at 9/10 years of age so they could compete against females. That’s not going to happen.

Thing is, it will give you no real advantage.

Boys who don't go through puberty are at increased risk of things like osteoporosis. Nobody needs or wants an elite athlete who can break a bone stepping off a curb.

The advantage only exists with a male who had gone through puberty who later transitions.

So the increased muscle mass and cardio vascular input along with overall physical size. These can't be reversed by taking some oestrogens, it won't make you shorter, have smaller lungs and rib cages and decrease muscle mass density to a great extent.

There will be no appetite for petite fragile biological males in elite sports.

So, with the new "open" - anyone can participate?

Male, Female, Trans, non-binary?

Transwomen will lose against males that aren't on hormones?

Let's see them complain about how unfair this is for them, because they will have no hope of winning any races against males.

Channel 5 Jeremy Vine asking for telephone calls on this at Jeremy Vine Extra.
"Is it wrong to ban transwomen from competing in the women's category"
Tel 0207 862 2222

It’s not encouraging childhood transition. They’re not (as far as I can tell) suggesting people transition at age 11. They are explaining that if they don’t, they’ll have advantage. They aren’t responsible for whether there is a ‘path’ into competing in the wrong sex class, only for saying what would and wouldn’t represent fair and safe competition. It’s clear to any sensible person that childhood transition is a dangerous medical scandal.

I'm with you, Malaga.

I don't care. I don't care if they're upset, or sad or even angry. Not. My. Problem.
My female socialisation has left the building. Fuck 'em.

Interesting that Stonewalk have (so far) nothing to say about this.

This was PinkNews’ take on it…

I feel this way. I am originally from India where women are only just beginning to enter sports, after years of social disapproval, sexual harassment, poor funding.... every kind of obstacle. They are just beginning to win Olympic medals in weight lifting and boxing, among others. The idea that a man can come in and take it away from them enrages me. I am afraid I don't care about trans women in sport; we still haven't made it easy for women across the world to enter sport! If I bring it up outside MN, people say " Don't you want to be an ally?" And I want to say "NO". Not if it means throwing women under the bus.

To my mind, the ruling appears to be encouraging childhood transition

This, it's exactly what we didn't want.

RudsyFarmer I intended to stress that I had paraphrased there, there was also talk that Michael Phelps had an unfair advantage because of his big feet.

This is Fallon's Twitter feed and the sentiments in the R4 interview weren't dissimilar:
twitter.com/FallonFox/status/1538735357008543746?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Wow. Did they honestly say that last sentence?

I'm pleased that Radio 4 gave this news some prominence this morning. I was also glad that they managed to get Fallon Fox as an interviewee.

She didn't manage to advance any sensible arguments other than (and I paraphrase here) "but we feel like women, too, so it isn't fair" and "if you are going to ban men from swimming in womens' races you should also ban blacks".

Two way empathy in this debate is sadly lacking.

Did you learn anything Dreikanter?

Delighted with that news makes perfect sence.

very sensible. reminded me of this from c 20 years ago, KP (MBE with dozens of top level swimming medals) beaten at swimming by a very mediocre, average sized, second division footballer.

news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/funny_old_game/3965687.stm

This is great news and huge thanks to the female swimmers who've spoken up to get this ruling agreed. Very very brave.

I am disappointed by the inclusion of the transition before 12 years element. I understand that it's aim is to state that's it's male puberty which confers the advantage, but it does suggest that 'transition' is a real thing and children can undergo it and then they're validly the opposite sex.

Also, I'm going to admit: I don't care much about how trans people take part in sport. It's really not top of my concerns in life.

I'm happy with just male and female categories and everyone just takes part in the category relevant to them, and meets the same rules as everyone else on drugs etc.

Job done. No need to think about anyone's identity at all.

If there are people who want special categories and races for Trans people they can get busy fund raising and organising. I wouldn't object, but I really don't care myself whether this exists or not, it is not an issue which feels important to me.

I know I'm supposed to at least pretend I care, but I don't.

The irony here given that Fallon Fox has no problem with, nay, revels in, violence against women. Above and beyond usual trash talking common to fighting.

I know what a woman is. You know what a woman is. But what happens if someone who doesn’t brings a legal challenge?

You can prove that male puberty brings an advantage that cannot be overcome by training. Therefore, people who haven’t gone through male puberty need their own category.

In the midst of this insanity, I’ll go for that.