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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Fina stops transgender swimmers from competing in women's elite events

491 replies

Kendodd · 19/06/2022 16:35

Common sense.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

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NotBadConsidering · 22/06/2022 22:51

Hilarious the way RMW describes Fina’s process involving a “science group” in scare quotes. Presumably if RMW is involved in taking this to court we can call it a “law group” doing it for the same reasons?

And good luck using the IOC “no assumption of male advantage” document as a legal footing, something everyone with any knowledge of anything said was complete nonsense.

And the paragraph soon after, RMW demonstrates why it always amazes me that RMW gets paid to be a barrister. RMW thinks the IOC “no assumption of male advantage” is a basis of legal argument. Then RMW writes about how Emily Bridges talked about how Bridges, be reducing testosterone, only had “female-level cardiovascular and respiratory performance – thereby putting them at a disadvantage.“

So RMW seems to be saying that Bridges was on a level playing field with women before having to lower testosterone and is now at a disadvantage. I would LOVE to see RMW argue that it court as part of a “legal argument”. It’s either that, or RMW is assuming male advantage existed, and has been lost due to testosterone suppression. I would also LOVE to see RMW argue that it is correct to say there is “no assumption of male advantage” while at the same time arguing that an athlete has lost male advantage and is now at female level.

Given RMW can’t even put together a coherent article in the Guardian, a “legal bundle” on such a case would be most entertaining.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/06/2022 21:09

It's just taken one sport to openly say women's sport must only be for XX women and suddenly all the sports who have been tiptoeing around earnestly moaning about inclusion find their courage to state the bleeding obvious.

Men should not be in women's sport, no matter how they identify.

TheBiologyStupid · 22/06/2022 17:29

Madcats · 22/06/2022 16:52

Shouldn't RMW have been at the Alison Bailey thing yesterday?

That was Monday - she didn't appear on camera that I saw, but then she was in Scotland for the committee hearing about reforming the GRA yesterday. Not sure if those things are connected...

Madcats · 22/06/2022 16:52

Shouldn't RMW have been at the Alison Bailey thing yesterday?

SidewaysOtter · 22/06/2022 16:52

Motorina · 22/06/2022 16:24

The only correct response to anything by RMW is "Bundle!".

Or, for a more topical slant: “Badly-organised, wrongly-numbered and no-one-knows-where-the-fuck-anything-is bundle!” Grin

TheBiologyStupid · 22/06/2022 16:40

Re my comment about RMW and football, today is coincidentally the anniversary of Maradona's infamous Hand of God goal and also the sublime Goal of the Century, scored just four minutes later.

Of course, the smaller and nimbler Maradona also held the records for the most fouls suffered in a World Cup (Mexico in 1986) and most fouls in a single World Cup game (23 against Italy in the 1982 tournament in Spain). And he was playing against members of his own sex. (At 5'5" (1.65 m), Maradona was short for a man, but above average height for a woman.)

CatsOperatingInGangs · 22/06/2022 16:40

Ross Tucker said on a recent podcast that when World Rugby formed their policy they new it was a colliding rights issue in which either side could take WR for court. So after considering the evidence they dedicated to do the right thing and if they do get sued, they’ve got the evidence to back up their decision making.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2022 16:39

I cant say I'd be sorry to see this end up in court.

Me neither. Bring it!

Theeyeballsinthesky · 22/06/2022 16:35

I would LOVE to see this in court. Really it would be brilliant! Every legal challenge has just poured sunlight in. Surprised RMW thinks court action is any kind of threat tbh

Datun · 22/06/2022 16:28

I cant say I'd be sorry to see this end up in court.

Sport is given as a legitimate exception by the EHRC, ffs. If we have to re-invent the wheel showing the bloody science and unfairness, then so be it.

Public opinion is forcing this issue. No-one wants men in women's sport. Let's show the entire world why not.

Motorina · 22/06/2022 16:24

The only correct response to anything by RMW is "Bundle!".

Dreikanter · 22/06/2022 16:18

Apologies, was trying to be ironic. RMW is always hyperbolic.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2022 16:18

Oh dear, I thought Vic Parsons and Freddie McConnell wanted the Guardian to be boycotted?

NecessaryScene · 22/06/2022 16:13

Meanwhile, RMW being a tad hyperbolic in the opening sentence:

A new policy barring most trans women from elite swimming has sent shockwaves through sport this week.

Why sugarcoat this, even as a joke?

It's an outright lie, and correction-worthy.

WalrusSubmarine · 22/06/2022 16:09

TheBiologyStupid · 22/06/2022 15:44

Thanks, Cats. I don't think RMW gets sport: "In football, for example, being smaller and nimbler might balance out advantages of absolute speed or strength" - yeah, right up until she encounters a 6'3" defender who feels like a girl...
No comments allowed under her piece in The Guardian surprise, surprise.

and yet RMW, we have no female millionaire footballers. That brilliant career is completely closed to small nimble females. So that would be no advantage then wouldn’t it?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/06/2022 16:07

Thinking about legal challenges.
I supposed these are based on the belief that men can magically become women? And will be based on countless examples of biological men birthing babies over the centuries, of girls undergoing male puberty, not to mention the men growing cervices following Lammy's instructions?

We know this is an immensely powerful and well funded men's movement that's been able to avoid democratic scrutiny in numerous countries so I have no doubt that we'll see some of their millions thrown at Fina in an attempt to force them into compliance.

Dreikanter · 22/06/2022 15:54

Hopefully FINA has considered future legal challenges:

The Legal and Human Rights Group was comprised of legal experts in sex discrimination, human rights, and international sports law, including the jurisprudence of the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS).

Meanwhile, RMW being a tad hyperbolic in the opening sentence:

A new policy barring most trans women from elite swimming has sent shockwaves through sport this week.

Not banned from elite swimming though - only from elite swimming in the female category.

There’s still a male category available, plus the potential of competing in the proposed new open category (which no doubt they will shun, because reasons).

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/06/2022 15:47

Oh for an edit button - that 1st sentence was a quote.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/06/2022 15:47

Yet the new policy rules that women transwomen cannot participate in the female category if they have undergone any aspect of male puberty

Women do not go through male puberty. Men go through male puberty.

This is what you get when activists change the meaning of words to suit their personal ideological preferences

TheBiologyStupid · 22/06/2022 15:44

Thanks, Cats. I don't think RMW gets sport: "In football, for example, being smaller and nimbler might balance out advantages of absolute speed or strength" - yeah, right up until she encounters a 6'3" defender who feels like a girl...
No comments allowed under her piece in The Guardian surprise, surprise.

samsalmon · 22/06/2022 15:41

Gosh, it’s a bit bold of RMW to claim ‘exclusion’, when it is in fact reassignment to the correct sex class. No one is being excluded.

CatsOperatingInGangs · 22/06/2022 15:30

Ladies, behold! RMW has arrived with opinions.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/22/trans-swimming-ban-sports-lawyers

I agree with RMW that is will no doubt end in court and I personally welcome it. If the sports federations have to defend excluding males from female sport then they’ll have evidence on their side. There is literally no evidence that says it’s fair to women and girls for their sports to be made mixed sex.

TheBiologyStupid · 21/06/2022 22:02

Nah. You just dismiss the results of your own poll and call everyone transphobes.

LOL! She won't like the results of the YouGov chat poll that 334bu mentioned above, then.

Dreikanter · 21/06/2022 21:55

SirSamVimesCityWatch · 21/06/2022 18:16

What's the betting she just deletes that and doesn't address it at all?

Nah. You just dismiss the results of your own poll and call everyone transphobes.

Fina stops transgender swimmers from competing in women's elite events
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