Fina stops transgender swimmers from competing in women's elite events

Harper’s “study” with Emily Bridges and loss of power on the bike is used as the entire basis of demonstrating that Bridges should be allowed to race against women. Yet Harper never jumps in to correct Bridges, or those who misrepresent Harper’s work in Cycling Weekly and so on. I think Harper knows that the science is what it is, can’t fudge it in any other way to give the answer that people like Bridges need to put on the table without it being shot to pieces by other scientists. Harper wants to everyone’s friend and seen as a credible sports scientist and Harper can’t be both.

Which would all be immaterial if it was just ruled that Bridges isn’t eligible on account of being male.

Harper confuses me.

I was really shocked to discover that Harper's work had been used to justify the inclusion of transwomen in the female sports category.

I can remember Harper discussing the study previously and arguing that while it did show a reduction of performance in line with t reduction that was not proof that transwomen had the same athletic potential as female athletes.

I sometimes think that Harpers work is used out of context, but Harper only challenges that "misinterpretation" when people are disagreeing with the t conclusion, in a "I never said that t reduction removes transwomen's physical advantage" kind of way

Tbh having seen how TRAs have reacted to scientists correcting the misuse of their papers on DSDs, I don't really blame Harper for keeping quiet.

The faux confusion about identifying men from women disappears when it comes to excluding women.

Quite

FIFA could tell who was female when suggesting they wore shorter, tighter shorts to increase interest in women's football. F1 can tell who to put into the cars and who a parade about scantily clad in front of them. Athletics knew who was allowed to pole vault and hammer throw throughout the 20th century and who was restricted to a far more limited program of events. Cycling can some how out work out that one set of people can do the Tour du France and another set can't. The faux confusion about identifying men from women disappears when it comes to excluding women.

TLDR; Inclusion presupposes eligibility. Once you realise that inclusion depends on eligibility, the tension between fairness, safety and inclusion disappears.

This has always been my argument. Why are we even debating advantage vs no advantage when males aren’t even eligible for women’s and girls competitions on account of them not being women and girls? Sports scientists like Ross Tucker say it’s a bit of give, to focus the argument on science and make it less of an inflammatory discussion and I can see his point. But TRAs get inflamed no matter what, as evident by their reaction to these decisions, so why pander you them?

”Transwomen are not eligible to compete in the women’s competition of [insert sport here] on account of them not being women. Here ends the discussion.”

Let’s see RMW take that to court to argue they are women, without using the word woman in the definition or stereotypes.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_sussex
From just after 11 discussion on whether transwoman should be allowed to compete with female athletes. Much sense talked and even Joanna Harper admits differences can't be mitigated.

They’re fine with men being in women’s hospital wards, psychiatric units, toilets, refuges, rape crisis centres and prisons and the subsequent sexual assaults and rapes of women that will occur, but they are absolutely appalled at the idea of female athletes having to prove their sex because it’s sexual assault (even though it isn’t, because it’s a cheek swab). I think I understand.

Interesting piece on why “fairness and safety” are more important than “inclusion” here, and how that is covered by UK law:

Confusion about Inclusion: Transwomen Athletes in the Female Category

idrottsforum.org/feature-imbrisevic220623/

TLDR; Inclusion presupposes eligibility. Once you realise that inclusion depends on eligibility, the tension between fairness, safety and inclusion disappears.

I am a tall woman! Just under 6ft. Not in anyway willowy either - tall and solid. Have known a couple of women over 6ft too. Nine of us anything other than instantly recognisable as female.

Datun's point is excellent (as ever) - TRAs saying this can't be enforced are admitting that transwomen would try to cheat and enter elite competition by hiding the fact they are male. It's almost as if they care more about winning in female categories than sportsmanship, honesty and integrity....

I know a few tall women and a friend who died young but was 6"4, they are and were all shapes and sizes but you would never think that's a man. Their gait, confidence and softness of shape (even when they are very slim) all indicate they are women. Women know instinctively and I'm sure men do too.

Ha! As ever, Datun, you make a ridiculously good point (which I had completely missed)!

I've already seen a conversation turn elsewhere to "but how can we possibly enforce this without sexually abusing women athletes by having to examine their genitals"

They love trotting this fantasy out.

They also don't care that it makes cheating liars out of all these hypothetical transwomen who will ignore the rulings.

"According to Sharron Davis, who had to have one when competing , its a one off cheek swab and that's all."

Well yeah, you'd only have to have it done once, wouldn't you, given that it's not actually possible to change sex.

Apologies - I was typing late at night.

Conform should have said confirm.

That's what I thought. And it was routine for a while but they stopped doing it as routine for... reasons?

And I believe athletes still have to produce urine while being actually observed for drugs testing anyway, don't they? Being an elite athlete seems to come with a certain invasion of privacy regardless of anything else! Again... all because some people cheat.

According to Sharron Davis, who had to have one when competing , its a one off cheek swab and that's all.

It’s done through a cheek swab, isn’t it!

Of course the irony is chromosomal checks wouldn’t be necessary if males weren’t trying to insert themselves into women’s sport.

Why was chromosome testing stopped? I've forgotten the story with sex testing of athletes and how it actually worked.

Paragraph F 1 b of the new FINA policy says that "FINA may ask the athlete to provide further information and documents and/or to submit to one or more medical examinations".

Paragraph F 2 requires the athlete to "certify their chromosomal sex with their Member Federation"; the Member Federation to "confirm their athletes' certifications of chromosomal sex when registering their athletes to compete in FINA competitions"; and "FINA reserves the right to conduct a chromosomal sex screen in its anti-doping protocol to confirm such certification" .

So I think they've got it covered? But IADNAL.

and more importantly, these are rules for elite level competition, athletes aren't just going to pop up out of nowhere, the likes of Thomas and Bridges both 'came up through the system' as boys and young men and in doing so became known by sight by huge numbers of coaches, other competitors, etc.

It must be something else to turn up to compete and just have to swallow any feelings about the unfairness of it

Tg not any more

Ooops cross post, was responding to SirSam... out of practice!

Well, quite. 😂

But I agree that rooting this in male puberty is very useful, because it lifts the debate away from all the destabilisation of the word 'woman' that's been going on.

Yes, I agree. A step back to reality.

I am endlessly entertained by the idea that apparently no-one can tell Lia Thomas et al are male just by looking.

I've already seen a conversation turn elsewhere to "but how can we possibly enforce this without sexually abusing women athletes by having to examine their genitals"

If only there were a document that noted someone's sex when they are born, that they carried with them for life, that was unalterable and as such trustworthy and they could produce as proof of their sex as well as their name, age etc... hmmmm. Imagine such a thing.

Why was chromosome testing stopped? I've forgotten the story with sex testing of athletes and how it actually worked.