Young paying the price for the old?

I think that even if sexual objectification isn't technically worse, it is more relentless in the time of social media.

I also think the idea of choice has changed. The normalisation of plastic surgery, for example. Years ago the group of people with large noses/wrinkles/flat chests would be seen as the default - with anyone changing their appearance seen as making an unusual choice. Then we had a period of equating the two decisions, as if boob implants and living with a flat choice were equally normal decisions for those without a cleavage.

Now, we have a narrative that people are choosing to age gracefully, embracing their curves or "flaws." This feeds into the idea that not surgically altering your appearance is an active choice, rather than the default.

Therefore, being a bog standard woman and having all things female happen naturally is something people are seen to embrace and choose.

There is a huge difference between women 20 yrs ago who came to the conclusion they were not women and girls today who are repeatedly asked if they are boys/girls/enbies. The latter feel like they are being made to choose womanhood.

You ask people every day if they really like their nose how it is and you'd see a huge spike in nose jobs, this is the equivalent.

Absolutely spot on.

It is an obvious need to consider why there is this huge explosion of young girls who are absolutely desperate not to have to be females in this society and who instead would like to be part of the opposite sex class, or exempted from being either sex.

And as we endlessly try to point out on this board: this entire ideology is rooted in a belief that females must be trapped within stereotypes to be permitted to be female, that a female has no right to choose a sexuality that excludes a male who wishes it to have access to her body, a female has no right to privacy, dignity or to be away from the eyes and unwanted behaviour of a male person if that male person refuses it to her, that a female's duty is to meet and serve male interests regardless of her own needs, feelings, wishes.

Place this in the context of decriminalised rape, the sheer volume of sexual harassment, assault and even rapes happening daily at school largely brushed under the carpet, the 3 people a week dying at the hands of domestic partners and the enormous volume of domestic abuse and violence, and that it is considered wrong and unacceptable to mention that all these people are women and yes. You cannot blame a young girl for wishing to be part of the class with all the power, who gets to have boundaries and control and to have their voice heard and to be allowed to say no. You only have to listen to TM such as Whittle and TW such as Hayton to pick up on the extreme sexism underpinning their beliefs, and it is all about male people having power and control and female people being there to serve them, under their command.

And this is it when ever 'cis' is inflicted on women: it means 'embraces subordinated position and a life serving more important people'. Children do not have the life experience and confidence of older women to say a resounding fuck off, I am and will be a woman any way I choose and your boxes and issues with stereotypes are your problem and not mine.

Then add in the tremendous pressure around appearance, being slim, made up, the right clothes, the pressure to send pictures, the relentless pushing of adults to remove protections and boundaries and normalise the sexualisation and exposure of kids to all this?

And yes. What sane female would want to sign up for all this shit if there's an alternative? And you're too young, too naiive, too trusting and too lied to to see the whole picture of the future it will lead to?

But yes, I can imagine being compared to (or feeling like people would compare you to) J-Lo would be pretty awful.

This kid is a twin. Not surprising it's the female twin who is a they.

We never had a way to opt out of puberty. This generation thinks they do.

Spot on @LoobiJee

I believe the tactic is called divide and conquer. I doubt any female will ever truly benefit from it.

I should add that I don’t actually know anything about the mother and daughter you mention.

But you mention the mother’s brand.

I would observe that being “non-binary” is also a brand these days.

I wouldn’t assume that the motivations behind a child in a family whose family business is focused on being in the public eye, bear too much resemblance to the motivations of the average 13yo in a bog standard secondary school in the UK - other than that they are both living in the same world of the over -sexualisation of and the commercial exploitation of women and girls.

So well put @LoobiJee 👏 🙌

A question that interests me is: when attempts are made to drive a wedge between older women and younger women, who benefits?

Do younger women benefit from being indoctrinated into disregarding older women’s voices and their experience of life? Or are they disadvantaged by that both in the short term and longer term?

If younger women are indoctrinated into disregarding older women’s voices, whose voices do they listen to instead? The interests and views of the multi-millionaire/ billionaire owners of mainstream media and those whom they give a platform to? The interests and views of the billionaire owners of tech industries and social media companies?

We all live in a deeply misogynistic world. There are industries making millions / billions out of the commercial sexual exploitation of women. As soon as there is a thread on this site about prostitution, you can guarantee there’ll be a flood of posters arguing how empowering it is for women / themselves / women they know. As soon as there’s a thread about pornography, there’ll be a flood of posters arguing that it is normal / harmless / great fun. Supposed local online newspapers (reach) now regularly run items about a woman making money on Only Fans.

That is the world that young girls are growing up in. They are growing up in a world where young children are given technology which gives access to images of violent sexual abuse of women and girls. They didn’t create that world. Neither did their mums. Not even the very small number of women in the public eye with a successful career based on their looks, who are in the unusual position of having managed to maintain those looks and their career despite being over 50 and having given birth to and brought up a daughter.

Pressure to look beautiful. To look like the gorgeous girls on love island. It’s become the norm with a certain look to the extent that a 14 year old girl must wonder why they don’t look like the tik Tok girls, etc. Everywhere you look there are such “beautiful” girls. It must be very difficult for non confirming girls.
I know at 14/15 I wore big jumpers. Yet still felt my sole aim in life was to have a boyfriend. I didn’t. As I have a look that says piss off and still does.

I think it’s a fad. Teenagers like to think they’re special and different. Having everybody dance around your gender identity and pronouns is a great way of doing that.

I’m not entirely convinced that sexual harassment / objectification / pressure over appearance is any worse now than it was 20 / 50 / 70 years ago. There are just more public figures being lauded for how brave and special they are for transitioning, and young people (and plenty of older people) fancy a bit of that too. All the trans / non binary people I’m vaguely acquainted with are a bunch of attention seeking drama llamas; gender identity and forcing everybody around them to adopt a language and ideology is right up their street.

This is a really interesting point of view.

I remember growing up and feeling like my self worth as a female was based solely on my looks. I remember wondering why girls couldn't thrive in spaces that were dominated by boys. E.g playing instruments, comedy and sport. These were the things I was most interested in doing and hated that I was never taken as seriously because of my gender.

Perhaps identifying as 'they' does allow people to detach from the stereotypes.

Party it's a trend.

But partly it's just that being a women isn't that appealing - and now an alternative has emerged..

High beauty standards might be part of the lack of appeal but I think it runs much deeper than that, that being a women seems harder work than being a man, and you are subject to way more criticism, and still a second class citizen.

Thinking about this, I didn’t “glam” up at all when I was that age. I thought I would look ridiculous if I even tried to be like (what I perceived as) “everyone else” and I would be laughed at. As I got older I got to a place where I became more comfortable with my place in the crowd, realising most people don’t care, and also how I was most comfortable representing myself. For these kids who really are being noticed wherever they go, as kids with famous parents will be, it must be so hard if they feel in any way as I did.

The trouble is 'they' can identify as they, non-binary or queer or any of the other labels. 'They' will still be female.

Do they see a beautiful women they will never look like.

Or do they simply see men and boys rating her body and the bodies of other women out if 10 and listing all the obcene things they'd do to her?

I think you have a point. Age 11-14 was about the peak of sexual harassment for me and my friends, flashers everywhere. You're right, they won't be able to opt out of that. And i agree the comparisons to unfeasibly perfect glamorous girls and women could well be a factor - even if a girl doesn't want to look like that, she is mocked for it and I think identifying as NB makes that mocking taboo- I think girls in secondary school would get an easier time as NB than just 'not playing the glam game'
Young girls transitioning to opt out of sexual objectification, older men transitioning to get themselves a bit of sexual objectification! Might not be the whole picture but I'm convinced it's part of it.

My generation of women wore jeans and t shirts when students, and despised girls plastered in make up as being “tarty” and desperate to please men! We certainly didn’t role model a vacuous image of female “beauty” to our daughters.
You are attacking the wrong target, OP.
It is the current generation of teen girls who post ridiculous selfies on social media and spend hours on make up and primping before going out. And the current generation of teen boys who are hooked on violent porn and choking their girlfriends while demanding anal sex - is it any wonder that young girls want to opt out of womanhood?
Add in social contagion and the trans rights propaganda, and you have a perfect storm.
But definitely not one of their mothers’ making.

Flipping Nora, my phone has a mind of its own…

“We found rollout won’t style and” - we found our own style and experimented

We found rollout won’t style and experimented - but didn’t make demands of family and society, bully everyone, and risk pretty dangerous behaviour (beyond drinking waaay too much and chemically straightening your hair which I wouldn’t recommend…)

Is emme shiloh 2.0?

This is nothing to do with jlo and everything to do with people so hung up on labels they obsess and look fir evidence of labels for others instead of I dunno, leaving these kids alone.

There are lots if reasons This is potentially happening many of which involves make behaviour. But of course its the mums fault for being beautiful 🙄

I think she's a kid growing up in the online social media world and the gender ideology fad. She's finding her own style and nothing wrong with that. She's a child experimenting.

Remember Shiloh Jolie Pitt. She grew up in the spotlight and was fawned over by the gender ideologists. At 16 her style has changed. When she was tiny she wanted to be like her brothers. and dressed like them and her Dad. Now she is more like her Mum.

I opted out of the ‘cutesy pretty’ girl culture thing when I was a teen because I was tall and lanky, and not pretty (so I thought but looking old at photos I was absolutely fine).

So I wore chunky ‘boys’ clothes and had my hair shaved, I wore crazy makeup or ballgowns and DMs, of 1950s tailored suits (mens and women) and antique jewellery. I guess that was the beauty of the 80s - you could have fun dressing up.