FINA Set to Announce Transgender-Participation Guidelines

Busy googling a recipe for humble pie.

It looks as if FINA is heading in the right direction.

TBF FINA and IOC are still trying to decide what to do about the East German female swimmers who were routinely dosed with anabolic steroids in the 70's and 80's (which only came to light after the fall of the Iron Curtain).

FINA is stuffed full of middle aged committee members, mostly male, so they probably aren't up to speed with what's going on (particularly if they are from more conservative parts of the globe).

So, if girls ID as boys and take testosterone and then stop ID ing as boys and start IDing again as girls, is it the female levels or the male levels they need to reach?

If it is the girls levels then that shows that sports bodies do indeed know the difference between the sexes right?

On the face of it that will be really simple - there's not a single male (pre or post puberty) who hasn't received a competitive advantage from being male. But presumably that means measuring them against some kind of 'woman' standard. E.g. can you run given distance in a set time? Just get it under this threshold to qualify. I can't see any problems there.

Surely the poor little lambs should be allowed to play with the girlies. After all, the massive physiological advantages that they enjoy even with reduced testosterone must be offset with the massive sense of male entitlement that they drag around with them.

Well if they can come up with 15 different categories for Para Swimming to ensure fairness and equity:
Swimmers are classed in one of 15 groups based on their degree of ability, with each group indicating a different level of physical, visual, intellectual or hearing impairment
One would have thought they can grasp the concept of difference between a man and a woman. No?

And no one says let's adjust men's sport so that transmen can 'have a chance to succeed' either.

Well, that would be ridiculous.

When I feel overwhelmed by the open contempt for women (as in those who have the female body) that is so clear in all these debates I begin to feel despondent.

Many sports are segregated because humans come in two basic body types and one is, on average, faster and stronger than the other, while the other has very specific additional biological attributes having to do with reproductive roles which the former will never have. And not segregating on the basis of sex is in many sports a recipe for unfairness toward those with the female body.

So then we shift from that to arguing that sports should be segregated on the basis of an abstract gender identity which most people are unlikely to even possess, and anyone who opposes that as a meaningless reason for segregating anything is seen as the bigot.

This is only possible because the decision-makers in societies don't really care about women or women's sports or women's rights or women's privacy or any of that, and because women are expected to prioritise being kind to others over their own interests.

And no one says let's adjust men's sport so that transmen can 'have a chance to succeed' either.

Since TWAW why is there any need for a discussion or guidelines. Why even make any rules about testosterone etc. unless, mmm, TWANW. They are men.

Firstly they need to move away from the focus on 'T'. I believe they don't want to do this because they know what the answer will be and the trans community will go nuts, they are basically scared.

Secondly what I don't understand is how they are going to prove the levels are below a certain amount for months and months. Who is doing the testing and reporting/monitoring results? We have seen athletes beat the drug testing regime so I don't see how they can ensure this is carried out consistently and fairly. Lastly how quickly do 'T' levels rise/fall? Could an athlete cheat by suppressing near to testing?

I am a mother of a swim teen daughter. She is reasonably speedy (but not speedy enough to have to do drug tests).

The idea that it is okay to have had 'high levels of testosterone in your body 5 years ago, but not now, and that's just fine' is batshit.

Puberty makes a huge difference to the boys. They shoot up and develop significant muscle mass (typically starting at about 12-14). You can't shrink that skeleton!

If I'm not mistaken, the part about the timeline of transitioning is a new addition?

The guidelines were updated late last year, way beyond the original publication

Did anyone notice that World Rugby changed their guidelines last year to say that transgender w cannot participate in female rugby, however, if a boy has not gone through male puberty (blockers, hormones etc) then they could.
I wonder if they know that that would be difficult with osteoporosis/osteopenia.

It's honestly so depressing and frustrating. I can't believe sporting bodies are not getting to a place of simple, no arguments logic instead of bending in two for an outcome that will never be fair or reasonable to women.

It's clear sex discrimination.

‘It is paramount, however, that all athletes competing have a chance to succeed, albeit not necessarily an equal chance and in line with the true essence of sport.’

This exists, and always has - compete within their own sex category. It entails athletes making choices about their priorities, which may not always be compatible with winning.

Jenner is the obvious proof of this. A transwoman who succeeded brilliantly and fairly in sport.

Women athletes regularly have to make difficult choices, deeply affecting their 'identity' and lives about when/whether to have children. No one tries to say that women's sport needs adjusting so that women in various stages of pregnancy and motherhood can 'have a chance to succeed', do they?

Here's a flow chart they can use for free.

HAVE YOU BEEN THROUGH MALE PUBERTY?

YES >>> Male sports for you

NO >>> Tell us more

Musomama you are being too logical here. Some males want to compete as women and females who object are just bigoted meanies, don't you know?

Two questions, is the hormone level being altered to make it risky for biological males to compete, therefore using science as an excuse to put males off entering women's sports?

Secondly, why is the abstraction of the term women never discussed, why are ethics of male inclusion being ignored and an ideology rapidly adopted? Present and future female competitors have the right to disagree a man is not a woman and even if the man is eminently beatable they have taken a woman's spot, her equal chance to compete?

As a result of intense training, male elite athletes often have very low levels of testosterone anyway (in one study 25 percent of elite male athletes had testosterone levels below what the International Association of Athletics Federations consider the lower limit for men). So a bunch of them might co-incidently qualify as 'women' if we're just using testosterone levels.

It doesn’t matter if any woman can beat Bridges. Bridges is advantaged by maleness. That means however average, or however exceptional, Bridges is as a cyclist, Bridges has advantages of biology over all female people.

The female's "chance of success" here comes from the chance that no elite males turn up for the race.

For example - competitive women can beat Rachel McKinnon - he's a doughball.

Absolute elite women can beat Laurel Hubbard, as he's over twice their age.

Can any woman beat Emily Bridges, an actual elite male?

‘It is paramount, however, that all athletes competing have a chance to succeed, albeit not necessarily an equal chance and in line with the true essence of sport.’

This is idiocy. Obviously not all athletes have an equal chance: some have talent, some have natural advantages not shared by other people who compete in the same group as them.

And a male who has undergone testosterone reduction has a far greater chance of succeeding against another male, than a female has of succeeding against a testosterone-reduced male.

The only way this gets vaguely close is if it's an elite female against a sub-par male. The female's "chance of success" here comes from the chance that no elite males turn up for the race.