Public want trans women kept out of female sport (Times, 16/6/22)

Yes, the TWAW statement is seen as a social nicety. Pronouns and nodding along.

As soon as they realise it means they are actually women, along with a lady penis, a complete re-writing of sexual orientation and rapists attacking women in prison, it all goes out the window.

“This is not for any ideological or philosophical reason, but a simple instinct for fairness,” the report said. “That men have physical advantages over women means that for very many people the inclusion of trans women in women-only sports is not fair and will lead to an uneven competition, and in some cases may not be safe"

See, that's already guaranteed transphobe status, accompanied by threats and fury, because they're calling them men.

It's not 'nuanced and kind'. It's not being in full possession of the facts. Yet.

Is this it?

Link to Stonewall website

Is the actual report available online? Its not linked in the articles.

I think that people’s attitudes are conditioned by their lack of personal experience of the phenomenon. Most people have never met one of the people in question, the headlines and controversies just don’t strike much of personal chord. When they see the 6’2” broad shouldered person trouncing the 5’6” curvy persons, and then smirking on the top step of the podium, it becomes an issue on which people can form a personal judgement.

I believe that when people start to come into contact with this, in schools when it affects their own daughters, in ‘public’ spaces when it affects their own wives and girlfriends and friends, attitudes will start to change. That’s why it is so important for rape and sexual assault by these people to be covered up by the determined use of female pronouns.

Not too long, I hope.

There's much nuance and disagreement and varied perspectives here, and all based on compassion and on wanting equality and access that works for everyone. This is the rational and balanced viewpoint.

What the papers and journalists are starting to dip their toes into is the uncomfortable fact that the 'polarisation' is actually

group 1: Absolute unconditional compliance

group 2: the rest of the universe

Which means it is impossible to even try to make plans that involve group 1. They cannot do so without leaving group 1.

I struggle with the polite fiction part. I grew up in a LGBTQ+ movement that emphasised PRIDE in who you are and who you love, pride in your unique journey that has made you the person you are today. It was an anti prejudice movement, and it celebrated diversity. It certainly didn’t seek to sweep difference under the carpet. TWAW seems to run counter to that ethos.

This is where I was in 2017 when I was still walking through flat fields, before I started exploring an unusual looking path which was leading uphill.

It's not that difficult to understand really. We often alter our way of speaking to take account of other peoples feelings and social conventions, especially when actually in conversation. I think we alter our way of thinking too after a time, without realising it. (That's how attitudes and beliefs change over time.) Especially when we don't think about it for long. I was happy that tw were a kind of woman in a social cultural sense, but not female in the biological sense. I still would be happy with that position if there wasn't a requirement to never ever mention that they are not female, and to give up our ability to articulate the difference when we need to.

What I find most interesting about this survey (and this comes out of the more detailed Guardian report) is that while 46% of people say they agree TWAW and TMAM (so the minority, but only just):

• only 19% think TW should be able to participate in women’s sport

• Only 24% think male bodied TW should be able to use women’s changing rooms

• only 29% think male bodied TW should be able to use women’s toilets

And as someone else points out, respondents weren’t asked about TW in women’s prisons but we can guess the likely response to that (and also to TW in women’s hospital wards/domestic violence refuges/rape support groups).

Yes what are we? Bigoted or nuanced? TRAs don't accept anything other than their stance.

Just to flag @RoseLunarPink (don’t shoot the messenger) that MN don’t allow the use of the terms trans identifying male and trans identifying female. I’ve had post deleted on this basis. Referring to “male bodied people” (or female bodied) seems to be ok, though won’t work if you want to refer to someone who has had gender reassignment surgery.

I suspect the majority still think that TWAW is a polite fiction and not a demand that people accept that men are literally women.

And the irony of the fact that “most people hold a nuanced position” when the nuanced position described is literally the prevailing position among those smeared as bigots and threatened with violence is typical of this whole debate.

We’ve really had a number done on us.

It’s a good question @Willhewonthe67

And I’m still struggling with the logic where a large chunk of the public agrees that TWAW and yet a lot of the same people must be saying also that they do not want them competing in woman's sport due to physical differences. They are clearly a different ‘type’ of woman. Ie a trans woman, not a woman.

That Guardian headline??

Feels like a giant waste of the last 7 (or whatever it's been) years. But useful probably, even so.

This!

dolorsit yes it's rather choice framing isn't it.

Guardian 🙄

However, people did feel strongly that trans women should not compete against cis women in professional sporting events

It's interesting, from the Guardian

“The fact that men have physical advantages over women means that for very many people the inclusion of trans women in women-only sports is not fair and will lead to an uneven competition, and in some cases may not be safe,” says the report, warning that this is one area where the public are at risk of becoming polarised.

We all know that if we posted this on Twitter it would be reported for transphobia and deleted.

It's odd that this is identified as being a risk of polarisation but that

46% agreeing with TWAW is seen as widespread acceptance

Another article from the Guardian on this -www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/16/twitter-trans-rights-gender-identity-report?CMP=fb_cif&fbclid=IwAR2_XRnalnvFUY51NI8zeZfVbDzWxC49mT44LtHb1sV5oJ1SzW48dzoJ4_g

I think journalists should be careful to specify what they mean and always say trans women in women’s/female sports, not trans people. Trans people should always be welcome in sport, this is not about being anti-trans or discrimination against trans people because they are trans. It’s males in women’s sport that is the problem. Trans-identifying females are welcome and do play in women’s sport.

Guardian take on the report:

amp.theguardian.com/society/2022/jun/16/britons-not-bitterly-polarised-over-trans-equality-research-finds

I think part of the issue is the fight against the no debate culture the TRAs have tried to militantly force on the world. What is a fair and decent perspective (as you rightly point out is shown by JKR and the overwhelming majority on this board) is knowingly wrongly classed as literally violence and bigoted abuse by those with the alternative perspective.

The 'problem' will never be resolved while one group is so aggressive and pushy and tantrums when they don't get their own way.

Exactly what I waa going to say.

From the toxic debate across social media you’d assume the country is split into trans activists and transphobes. But when you speak to ordinary people across the country you realise that nothing could be further from the truth. Instead, most Britons take a nuanced, compassionate approach that is rooted in society doing what it can to make trans people feel accepted but which also balances inclusion with fairness

But the problem is that those people who take a nuanced and compassionate approach eg JK Rowling and the vast majority of posters on these boards are branded as transphobes by the trans rights activists. Any deviation from the TWAW mantra is seen as transphobia. How do we address this?