Public want trans women kept out of female sport (Times, 16/6/22)

They do not have to accept that. They do have to accept that their belief is not shared by others, and they cannot demand it any more than the Church of England can require everyone of all faith to affirm that there is only one true God and to wear a crucifix.

That would be my prefered solution. But you know they wont have that because that option states in plain terms that TW are not women. Hell will freeze over before the tin foil hat gang accept that.

The reason is obvious if people with a penis or who have gone through puberty with one compete against biological females then that will be the end of female sport completely. Trans should have their own sporting event. There are so many of them now and with the trend growing, it should be easy for them to organise their own events.

Despite years and years of campaigning from Stonewall, the public still haven't accepted the new message that being trans is a matter of self identification, that penises can be female, and that being a woman is literally anyone who says they are a woman with no further qualifications.
This is a very good point. Though they've campaigned for these ideas to be basis for policies and to become accepted in some institutions, they haven't actually campaigned for this to become the main way of understanding trans people in thd population generally.

I can totally see why most people - maybe including me - would put it behind other issues that seem more urgently important in their lives. Especially when framed as a debate about trans people rather than about women's rights, which doesn't even appear. Most people, arguable rightly despite the massive increases, think of "trans people" as a tiny minority and many of them don't know about the full realities and ramifications of gender ideology.

I've downloaded the report and data tables.
Interesting overall, the debate about transgender people didn't rate very high at all.
(1.A-C) In your opinion, which are the most IMPORTANT issues facing the country today?
Select the top three
64% Cost of living
32% Supporting the NHS
29% The war in Ukraine
26% Climate change and the environment
21% Covid-19
18% Affordable housing
18% Mental health
16% Crime
14% Asylum seekers crossing the channel
12% Social care for the elderly
12% Jobs and unemployment
12% Gap between haves and have nots
10% Brexit
7% Racism in society
5% School standards
2% The debate about transgender people
1% Other (Please specify)

But when you speak to ordinary people across the country you realise that nothing could be further from the truth. Instead, most Britons take a nuanced, compassionate approach that is rooted in society doing what it can to make trans people feel accepted but which also balances inclusion with fairness.” Others could learn from ordinary Britons, he added

But this is exactly what most gender critical feminists are saying! Unless Luke was having a pop at transactivists, which he probably wasn't!

I think what this survey shows is that the public do not actually think TWAW. If they did, they would want them in women's sports and women's spaces. But they don't. When they say TWAW they mean they should be treated as women at times when that does not conflict with women's privacy, dignity, safety or fairness. They accept transexuals who physically appear to be women, as they believe (and are probably right) that these people are not a threat to women, in the way that other males are. They believe (and are probably right) that transexuals are genuine in their motivations and intent.

They certainly don't understand TWAW in the way that Stonewall et al do, and would probably be horrified if they knew what it means to Stonewall et al.

Great summary, it really should be that simple.

A while ago I was trying to explain to my children how different newspapers report the same thing but put a different slant on it depending on what message they are trying to convey.

The Times and Guardian reporting on this 'survey' couldn't be more perfect in illustrating the point :)

I don't think "nuance" is a word I'd be using if I were in SW because it's an open invitation to what about...

• males in female spaces
• prisons
• rape crisis, hospitals
• numbers of female minors suddenly wanting to transition
• etc

"Nuance" gives permission to debate IMO. And here, it seems to mean that the ever-expanding trans umbrella is roundly rejected by Joe Public, who are happier with nuance. With definitions. With boundaries. All the things that have been undermined and changed in the shadows.

However, it could be that people tend to become less prejudiced as they mature, or possibly the numbers here are not even statistically significant. I'd be interested to hear other opinions on this, particularly from any sociologists or statisticians.

That could be one factor.

You might be interested in this bit of research if you have not read it.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/18/what-does-woke-mean-britons

And a follow up

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/12/22/cancel-culture-what-views-are-britons-afraid-expre

There are some very good comments on the article.

Yorkshire and Humber was also the the region with the largest percentage (29%) to strongly agree that TWAW.

I can't compare results for Brighton and Bradford, but the report does split the data by region, showing that 25% of respondents in Yorkshire and the Humber said they know someone who is transgender, compared to 22% of those in the South East excluding London.

I agree with previous posters that it is interesting and encouraging that many responses that the TRAs would characterise as transphobic, are being now described as "nuanced and compassionate". However, there are some survey responses which I do think could be fairly described as transphobic (and homophobic), and looking at these, the data seem to suggest that homophobia and transphobia are more prevalent among the younger generation, which certainly took me by surprise.

Not that this is mentioned in the report's analysis or in the newspaper articles, but if you look at the data tables www.moreincommon.org.uk/media/p5uln04a/britons-and-gender-identity-data-tables.pdf, you can see that among Gen-Z (18-24-year-olds), 7% would feel disgusted, and 6% would feel angry if a close family member came out as transgender, while 6% of them would feel disgusted and 5% would feel angry if a close family member came out as lesbian, gay or bisexual. The percentages are a bit lower among Millennials, and lower still for older generations, being lowest of all among the over-75s.

This is worrying because if people tend to retain their prejudices as they age, then these results suggest that transphobia and homophobia are on the increase. However, it could be that people tend to become less prejudiced as they mature, or possibly the numbers here are not even statistically significant. I'd be interested to hear other opinions on this, particularly from any sociologists or statisticians.

But that is very much the way this is going to be won. Basically adopting all these "reasonable positions" without recognition that they're pretty much the reasonable positions all the transphobes like JKR have been calling for, and are already enshrined in law.

As further evidenced in the transcript of Maya Forstater's employer's evidence.

Paraphrased along the line of

Senior manager: 'it is not a transphobic position'
BC: 'what could she have said to state that position that was not transphobic'?
Senior manager: waffle, waffle... but amounted to 'nothing'. She could have said nothing to state her position that was not considered transphobic.

(as I said, this was paraphrasing)

To be clear, that was someone taking the piss out of what the article seemed to be saying.

Yes, and they've nailed it.

I think we all know that the women who speak out are not punished for their views (nearly everyone shares them or some of them), but for their assertiveness in articulating them and their tenacity in holding to them.

Unsurprisingly, it turns out the British public side with the gender critical position. Transing children, self ID, transwomen in female sports, transwomen with penises in female spaces, are all unpopular. Despite years and years of campaigning from Stonewall, the public still haven't accepted the new message that being trans is a matter of self identification, that penises can be female, and that being a woman is literally anyone who says they are a woman with no further qualifications. The vast majority of people believe in the old fashioned view of transsexuality, which is it concerns people with gender dysphoria who undergo surgical and hormonal transition. It never fails to amuse me every time these surveys come out and it shows that everyone is actually a massive TERF.

It will be interesting to see where the trans activist groups go with this. The reason gender critical feminists are so mad is because we know the real agenda, which is to have postmodern self-ID policies across the board. One option is for the trans activists to keep pushing for what they really want, which will ultimately result in a massive backlash when the public realise what is actually going on.

If I were in charge of the trans lobby, I would be smart about it and cut my losses. I would go back to the view that trans people have dysphoria and require medical treatment, and fully transition because there is a great deal of public sympathy. But after so many years of campaigning I'm not even sure if trans groups would be happy with that compromise - whereby transwomen are treated as women for some purposes but not all.

To be clear, that was someone taking the piss out of what the article seemed to be saying.

But that is very much the way this is going to be won. Basically adopting all these "reasonable positions" without recognition that they're pretty much the reasonable positions all the transphobes like JKR have been calling for, and are already enshrined in law.

That has shades of, well when we said born In the wrong body, we didn't actually mean born in the wrong body.

“While the online discourse has had transphobes argue that transwomen in women’s sport would be unfair on women; the rather more reasonable take from the public is that it would be unfair on women”

So, if Luke with their history working with Stonewall can say this, why is there so much hatred displayed when males are excluded from female sport categories or hatred and abuse directed towards anyone who says it is not ok.

I saw this well characterised on Twitter as:

“While the online discourse has had transphobes argue that transwomen in women’s sport would be unfair on women; the rather more reasonable take from the public is that it would be unfair on women”

On the sixth anniversary of her death too, what a disgusting comment from @Lovelyricepudding