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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pronouns in maths exams

315 replies

OhWhatFuckeryIsThisNow · 13/06/2022 20:19

I scribe for GCSEs. Today was aqa maths, calculator paper. Now maths textbooks and exams have long done diverse names in the examples, eg, Sarah and Rashid are making cakes...Dafydd is planting a garden, Safira is buying rope. You get the drift. This year though I’ve noticed that gender neutral has been introduced. So Kai is making a cake, they use 50 grams of sugar. One could say that making the questions genderless is ok, and maybe so if it was consistent. So there was they their, he him and she her. A few of my fellow sribers said that their candidates were confused by the wording of the questions (especially the they/theirs, the kids thought there were more than one person being talked about). I was talking about it with the maths teachers later and all of them said why can’t it be Student A, student B? And especially why cant the exam board be consistent?

OP posts:
suggestionsplease1 · 14/06/2022 13:38

titchy · 14/06/2022 13:32

No. They might do pure maths at postgraduate level if that was the right way forward for them

Really? Really? That's your solution? Make the 15 year old with language processing disorder who is pretty good at maths, sit a postgraduate maths module rather than ensure the GCSE they actually want to access and have been taught the content for more accessible? Really? You think teaching them something entirely different, which cater for young adults rather than children, is the solution?

My gob is smacked.

Enabling a child to understand the use of the pronoun 'they' is a far, far, more straightforward cognitive task compared to the vast majority of the more complex language demands placed on students taking GCSE maths.

titchy · 14/06/2022 13:32

No. They might do pure maths at postgraduate level if that was the right way forward for them

Really? Really? That's your solution? Make the 15 year old with language processing disorder who is pretty good at maths, sit a postgraduate maths module rather than ensure the GCSE they actually want to access and have been taught the content for more accessible? Really? You think teaching them something entirely different, which cater for young adults rather than children, is the solution?

My gob is smacked.

RumpBelle · 14/06/2022 13:10

I can't cope with this level of ignorance. Pure fucking maths. Snort.

suggestionsplease1 · 14/06/2022 13:06

titchy · 14/06/2022 10:29

If there are massive language difficulties teacher or parents might make the decision that a different type of maths qualification is appropriate for them, one where they can more readily demonstrate their competence in their areas of strengths

Right. So in your world a kid who is brilliant at maths but who has a language processing disorder should be doing basic level maths rather than be given a paper with straightforward commonplace grammar? Because writing the examples in the paper in a way that appeases TRAs is more important than ensuring ND kids have a paper that can demonstrate their academic ability? Got it.

No. They might do pure maths at postgraduate level if that was the right way forward for them.

I would hope they would receive support which enabled them to achieve more general maths qualifications first, but of course individuals can have vastly differing profiles of abilities.

RumpBelle · 14/06/2022 12:51

WarriorN · 14/06/2022 12:37

I teach children with SEND and asd.

This would be very problematic and is ableist.

I'm concerned a poster who advises in the areas thinks this is A ok.Hmm

Yes, just another sobering example that inclusivity only applies to the (largely by, able bodied) 'minority'.

Fact is it's harder to cater for actual disability and learning difficulties, which is why schools are so rainbow washed. It's virtue signalling. The rainbow people require no specialist equipment, adaptations or true learning. All the time and money is squandered on people who don't need any additional help.

This ticks me off, especially in primary. Primary children have only the vaguest understanding of sexuality and only need reminders of tolerernce, diversity etc.
Yet we have a huge number of pupils with physical or mental disability and they are never ever centred. No one gives a shit they have to sing hymns about the joy of running etc yet GNC children are pandered to with language constantly.

Inclusive my arse.

WarriorN · 14/06/2022 12:42

"They/ them" pronouns aren't on the maths or English curriculum.

Peregrina · 14/06/2022 12:41

That video just shows how stupid it's all become. Of course in some languages tables, chairs, shoes, houses and so on, do have a gender.

WarriorN · 14/06/2022 12:37

I teach children with SEND and asd.

This would be very problematic and is ableist.

I'm concerned a poster who advises in the areas thinks this is A ok.Hmm

PlattyJubes · 14/06/2022 12:32

Thanks @NecessaryScene - you've actually made me smile with that video which is quite an achievement today!😁

NecessaryScene · 14/06/2022 12:09

Actual footage of one of suggestionplease1's lessons:

TheBiologyStupid · 14/06/2022 11:58

AuxArmesCitoyens · 14/06/2022 11:47

I can easily see an ESL speaker being confused by the Petra question by thinking part of the question had been left out / misprinted.

Indeed - and it is nowhere near GCSE level, showing that wording of even very simple Maths questions can be problematic if not written in clear and precise terms.

AuxArmesCitoyens · 14/06/2022 11:47

I can easily see an ESL speaker being confused by the Petra question by thinking part of the question had been left out / misprinted.

MercurialMonday · 14/06/2022 11:46

For many teachers, it won't be obvious what the problems are that the child is experiencing -

One of the worst evening with HW I ever had came about because a Y3 teacher and maths co-ordinator at the school decided on a whim that the op set in Y3 should be given Y5 worded questions.

DS had been awful at maths - really behind so we'd spent years doing extra building up his confidence - and he'd got very good in top set.

He could do the maths but couldn't extract the information - he refused not doing it and even with me finding the information it was a very fraught evening. I spoke to them next day explained while he could do the maths his reading - which he was still receiving extra help for - wasn't yet at the standard needed to extract the information from the questions -was told many other parents had said similar but that if he could do the maths he should be able to do the questions.

Took ages to build DS confidence back up.

It is a different skill set - and one DS developed with age - but even now ambiguous confusing questions aren't helpful.

whataloadabullocks · 14/06/2022 11:40

But it's a fictional character so where is the problem of using he or she?
Why use their or they at all? There is just no need?

AuxArmesCitoyens · 14/06/2022 11:36

Think this sort of language isn't a problem for ESL speakers? Imagine you have a basic reading knowledge of German. Maybe even GCSE level. Mann / Weib would be among the first words you learn, so if they crop up you're golden. "bei der Geburt männlich / weiblich zugeordnet", not so much.

BotCrossHuns · 14/06/2022 11:13

*However, if it is a competence that is being assessed in the qualification the student cannot opt out of these questions. Well they can, but they will lose marks. Maths qualifications may have a remit of preparing for real world scenarios, and they often do situate problems in social contexts.

If there are massive language difficulties teacher or parents might make the decision that a different type of maths qualification is appropriate for them, one where they can more readily demonstrate their competence in their areas of strengths.

However for most students this is an area that can be addressed with appropriate preparation and reasonable adjustments in the timed examinations themselves.

If a teacher or apparent anticipates that a student might face difficulties with pronouns for whatever reason the right way forward is to spend more time preparing for questions so that they are in a strong position to tackle them on the day.*

This is ridiculous. LIke teachers don't already spend hours of time working on the language aspects of maths questions with such pupils - actual language disabilities are not so easily solved, or we wouldn't have Speech and Language therapists working for years with such pupils on things like pronouns, tense, word order, etc.

Many pupils with subtle language disabilities don't understand that they've misunderstood the question - it's all just part of "I can't do maths" for some of them, when actually there are some aspects of maths they can do OK at. They may not be the strongest maths candidate, but they can do enough to maybe get a grade 4, if they're asked clear questions. Yes, this can included worded questions, real-life situations etc, as long as they're worded properly. It's an area teachers already spend much time going over and working on, to help as much as they can.

even the more basic functional maths skills tests have worded scenarios (in fact, sometimes more than GCSE) - even year 6 SATS have a couple of papers on this. So it's not like you can just say 'oh enter them in something that doesn't have lanugage in if they're not up to the task'. That really demonstrates an ignorance of the types of language disorders there are and how they can affect understanding.

For many teachers, it won't be obvious what the problems are that the child is experiencing - it can take careful analysis by speech and language experts to work that out, and then to help address it. Teachers might just realise that a child is not multiplying something that the should be , and think that the child doesn't understand multiplication or when to do it, and might concentrate efforts on clues to that - when actually, the child has misunderstood the situation described, and hadn't realised that a certain value applied to each person, but thought it was for the group, for example. It's not like they can just tell students that pronouns could refer to anyone so be prepared for that. The students themselves don't recognise where they're going wrong, let alone what might be causing it.

These may not even be massive language difficulties, but really subtle ones that can have quite big effects, particularly if people don't understand where they are coming from. Something as simple as not recognising something is a question vs a statement, for example, from mixing up 'is this' or 'this is', can have huge effects. Missing off the 's' at the end of a word when processing it, and not realising there is more than one thing, same sort of problem. Imagining that there must be other people (or something else unspecified like a company where you might use 'they') involved in a problem because of the word 'they' is similar. All kinds of subtle details. The exam boards don't always realise at first how something can be misinterpreted either - luckily they do learn from some of these things being pointed out to them, and there are efforts being made to write in clearer English. Other teachers/parents/adults don't always understand how there could be any other way to interpret a sentence until it's explained what the child thought - sometimes it is an ambiguous sentence that could actually be interpreted two ways, other times it's the child mistake for mixing up words ,leaving out punctuation, not realising which parts of the sentence went together etc, and it's not how a 'normal' language processor would interpret it, but a common misunderstanding. And even those need to be avoided on a test that is about maths - even when it's about applying maths to real-world situations.

Also yes to the point about expecting the language to be formal. Children are taught that questions are worded carefully, and that in things like probability problems, you need to read exactly what is written, and not necessarily what you might assume based on how we talk in normal life. Another example might be the word 'similar' - it has a very specific meaning in maths, which is not the same as in normal life, where it means 'kind of the same'.

Not having a language disability is not a prerequisite or a competence required for doing a maths test. Yes, there are aspects of maths where you have to understand language and worded problems and situations, absolutely, and it's vital to test these. But you can still test them and be sensitive to the needs to pupils with language difficulties.

It's nothing to do with objecting to people using they/them/their pronouns in real life - my feelings on that are unrelated to them being used in a maths exam. I hadn't even realised this topic was in FWR to start with. I am not trying to erase the identity of anyone - there are in fact many ways to word a problem in a gender neutral way if that's what you want to do, and I gave examples above. it's this insistence on the fact that they/them pronouns can't be confusing to anyone who takes maths at this level that I object to, or that their problems with pronouns or language comprehension generally should just be put right with a bit of practice in advance.

MercurialMonday · 14/06/2022 11:13

PlattyJubes I think it's good people are complaining.

I'm doing a lot of sitting next to DS revising for his last GCSE exams this year - 3 science ones - it's very lucky DH and I have strong science backgrounds because so many of the answers in text books/workbook are just wrong and it's alarming how many past exam paper questions are unclear.

I do wonder if it was even more ambiguous being read out aloud as in OP.

Student A Student B would have avoided pronouns and unusual names that could trip a student up - and less confident students, Sen students or student who first language isn't English are most likely to fall foul.

DD2 had a friend - she born in UK and lived here all her life but her family who most time is spent with outsides school speak their native language - ever so often we get a text asking what a word means - usually a rarer every day word that she just not come across before often in a particular context - I suspect gable end of house would throw her.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 14/06/2022 11:12

Dd is NT

she had a science question about a driver (she assumed of a car) and how much oxygen they needed while under water

obviously it was DIVER…but she spent much too long trying to puzzle it out

PlattyJubes · 14/06/2022 10:43

Not sure whether anyone else feels as strongly about this as i do but this thread has certainly galvanised me to take action.

I plan to write to complain about this to the exam board and the Education Secretary. I dare say I will be fobbed off with a "thanks for bringing this to our attention blah blah blah" but I will feel better for having made my feelings on this nonsense clear.

TheElementsSong · 14/06/2022 10:38

The ideology cannot fail, it can only be failed.

This sums it up exactly.

Clymene · 14/06/2022 10:30

Also race and ethnicity is a real thing. Pronouns are a belief system. Why are they in exams at all?

takingmytimeonmyride · 14/06/2022 10:29

My son is 20 and did the maths GCSE. He has autism and learning disabilities, so isn't expected to get a pass grade, but this is a huge achievement for him, just sitting the exam. He gets pronouns confused often, and doesn't even know that they/them is an option for some people, so something like this would confuse him greatly. His reading comprehension isn't great (he's been doing functional skills English, he wouldn't manage GCSE)

As someone who is also autistic and struggles with maths greatly, especially questions with words in (maths is numbers, in my brain, not words) it would also confuse me greatly.

RumpBelle · 14/06/2022 10:29

Part of the strategy for preparing children for testing is reading the question thoroughly and looking for consistent rules. Eg words like each, between, share are likely to be division. Words like they, pair, two names indicate two people or two parts.
Teachers already 'prepare' children with these strategies but it still means certain children are at a disadvantage, hence extra time etc.
Teaching them their also can be singular doesn't help simplify the matter and pupils who struggle with this are likely to get confused and worried. Along with other children who are thrown by the informality of the question.

Sen children should be helped to reach their full potential, not disregarded because they can't keep up with nonsensical linguistic contortions.

titchy · 14/06/2022 10:29

If there are massive language difficulties teacher or parents might make the decision that a different type of maths qualification is appropriate for them, one where they can more readily demonstrate their competence in their areas of strengths

Right. So in your world a kid who is brilliant at maths but who has a language processing disorder should be doing basic level maths rather than be given a paper with straightforward commonplace grammar? Because writing the examples in the paper in a way that appeases TRAs is more important than ensuring ND kids have a paper that can demonstrate their academic ability? Got it.

Peregrina · 14/06/2022 10:27

They receive £200, is certainly one answer.