Drag Queen Story Time

Don't be ridiculous. Do you really think a drag queen just is a 'gender non-conforming man'? Drag queens are highly sexualised and grotesque parodies of women, and a form of adult entertainment. They are not a 'threat to society', but they are unsuitable as children's entertainers.

Don't know if anyone else has seen this - might be of www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11052687/Police-forced-escort-Drag-Queen-safety-protesters-storm-childrens-event.html

This is the sad result of GC radicalisation when trans people/gender non-conforming men are viewed as a threat to society.

A very sad echo of what gay men went through in the 70s and 80s when the press and society demonised them as a threat to children.

it is ok to be who you are

Never understood it when people say this about drag queens. Most people are who they are. Drag queens are among the minuscule number of exceptions.

Yeah...this is not the way! I do not support this in any way, shape or form.

It's a leap that there are "good" protestors (the women, probably GC, who must not be silenced!) vs the "bad" protestors (the men shouting outside). They could be well part of the same group

It's also a leap that everyone who protests must be doing so for the same reasons.

Your assumption seems to be that everyone who protests is part of the 'bad', homophobic, transphobic group. You need to get out of this mindset that everyone who wants to protect children must be homophobic and transphobic. Most of us just want to protect children. This is nothing to do with people who are gay or trans.

Not everthing that criticises this sort of stuff is "gender critical", even if there are women members. I sincerely doubt that an organisation calling itself 'Patriot Alternative' is.

It is less strict than orthodox judaism; it is liberal and my synagogue has had mixed seating since the early 1900s. However, without going too much into it, my synagogue only seems 'progressive' because the dominant denomination in this country is orthodox judaism (even though the majority of jewish people in this country do not keep strict kosher and would use electricity on shabbat; the majority do still affiliate with an orthodox synagogue because that is the dominant stream and those would have separate seating). In the USA, around half of Americans identify with non-orthodox judaism; i think this is partly historical as Reform Judaism originated from Germany and the Jews who fled Nazi Germany ultimately often chose America as their final destination (or had little choice in the matter since the British did not allow many Jewish refugees to enter) if they survived. Many of the people in my synagogue are Kindertransport refugees/descended from Kindertransport refugees. However, I would say a large percentage of British Jewish people (like my DH's paternal side) came here pre WW2 and they therefore are more likely to identify as orthodox (even if they drive on shabbat). The Liberal Jewish movement was homegrown in the UK but I still find a lot of the congregants in my synagogue are American or French or converts like myself (in addition of course to the British families who have been liberal for 4 generations) so its very diverse; and hence I am not surprised trans people would feel comfortable there.

The majority of converts in the UK are non orthodox. I remember reading a stat that said there are only 25 orthodox converts and over 200 Reform/Liberal converts. Not sure how many there are from the conservative denomination (they are more strict than reform but less strict than orthodox. my MIL was an orthodox convert, it took her 3 years and she had to live with an orthodox family (they rejected the first person she lived with because she was a single woman). my MIL ultimately became so religious that she sent my DH to a ultra orthodox primary school in stamford hill; but she has mellowed over the years and is now more 'mainstream orthodox' and occasionally even goes to a partnership minyan (which is where women read from the torah). She is still very observant- doesn't' use electricity on shabbat, keeps strict kosher, and she wears long sleeves and long skirts even in 40 degree heat. In contrast, it took me 1.5 years to convert to Liberal Judaism, I had to learn hebrew and take 2 hours of classes every week, as well as appear before a jewish court (though I wasn't rejected 3 times like my MIL). I would say it is harder to convert to any form of Judaism as opposed to Christianity and Islam. I suspect trans people who convert to Judaism 'as a woman' do not need a circumcision, though I can't be sure because I find it weird asking such questions! Most converts to Judaism are female (and my DH thinks thats because of the circumcision requirement for men-which applies across all denominations). Traditionally, the stereotype was that converts were people like me- female with a Jewish spouse but apparently this is no longer the case- many converts nowadays don't even have a Jewish partner!

www.tabletmag.com/sections/community/articles/conversion-not-just-for-marriage-anymore
'There were other revelations from our survey. Sexual and gender minorities now seem to make up an outsize number of today’s converts. “One population that has increased the most is trans people,” said Yanklowitz, of Valley Beit Midrash, in Phoenix. “I don’t know if that’s because they think of me as an ally, so they reach out to me, or because trans awareness and public awareness has increased these past few years, or something about trans people who want to transition, they want to transition religions and genders.”

Oh, GJBJ, while you're here....rights?

This is because you don't generally publish images of other people's children on the internet.

Unless, of course you are a gender critical activist who goes into a library to film a video of yourself shouting about "paedophiles" at children. Then you would publish images of other people's children on the internet.

Husbands could also write

It's a leap that there are "good" protestors (the women, probably GC, who must not be silenced!) vs the "bad" protestors (the men shouting outside). They could be well part of the same group -- there was a vaccine site protested on my road where most protestors were women, and plenty of women are involved in alt-right/white supremacy/conspiracies about jews and paedophiles being the new world order.

The group of protestors was small and I do not believe that there's any chance the "good" protestors were unaware of what the "bad" protestors were shouting, which included well known far-right dog whistles.

Exactly this
Plus the "bad" protesters no doubt think they're the "good" protesters too.

I’m also in a racial demographic that Patriotic Alternative would protest against. It is a great shame that the left’s refusal to listen to women raising safeguarding concerns has led to a position where there is a vacuum these groups can exploit. Just as in Rotherham where anyone raising concerns was vilified for a long time and the girls in the Asian community who were exploited are still being ignored.
I hold people like Stella Creasy responsible for this and for the now inevitable backlash against LGB people this will create. A group that I belong to.

How you can think involving young children in a disruptive protest, when you have numerous other options to make your views known, I don’t know.
you seem incapable of balancing benefits and risks. People like you help no one.

onthefencesitter 02:26
Please forgive the derail as what I want to ask, regarding the following you said, is not about drag queens:

I have never had any common ground with neo Nazis or trump..I will report back if that ever happens! Re trans issues- it is relatively new for me; and I don't have a fully formulated opinion. I have met trans people at my synagogue (somehow they choose to transition into a new religion at the same time!); Tbh they just seemed like very unhappy people but that is not unusual in a religious setting; after all, religion is often a refuge for the lonely!

I have a SIL who has now declared herself a member of the trans community (same issues with mental health; zero history of gender dysphoria). That's why I am looking into it seriously now.

This is an interesting post I think, onthefence. You often here GC people describe the insistence of trans allies and trans people that they are literally the opposite sex to what they were born, and to say otherwise is transphobic, to being something like a new religion.

In the cases you describe in your synagogue, you can see that, if the people you are mentioning are troubled in general as you say, both transitioning/converting to a new religion and a new body might feel like those joining evangelical religions’ ‘being reborn’.

I was wondering if your synagogue is less strict than some? I thought sometimes it could be hard to ‘become’ Jewish if your mother had not been - but perhaps in these cases their mothers had been. Also, if your synagogue has a women’s and a men’s side, have the trans people been allowed to sit in the side of their transgender identity?

How you can watch that video and think it's women who a danger to children I do not know.

Even religious groups can make poor choices sometimes because they want to seem relevant and progressive. Quite a lot like libraries. So I'm not really sure what your point is?

I mean, I understand the idea of religious institutions being open to all walks of life. But why have a drag queen in particular, who is not even a real person as such but a performance personality, like the Little Tramp? Or was it just a person who was a performer, without being all made up as a persona? Would you have had, say, a stripper, or prostitute, or convicted criminal who had been found guilty of a socially condemned crime, a junkie? Because those are people who are often significantly marginalized, more so than some guy who dresses up for performances in clubs?

And I'm not suggesting those people should not be welcomed, quite the opposite. But if an event is really about the kind of religious responsibility to the marginalized, that could include all kinds of people not appropriate to read kids stories at a library.

But at the risk of harm to children. There are plenty of ways to protest that don’t carry that risk.
it’s not a tricky point to grasp, this one

On another thread (the soap stall), a poster is putting forward an argument that perhaps the organisation that decided to withdraw the stall at the community event is not responding so much to what the woman claims to have written but the perception that once a claim of offence has been lodged, then the organisation has to respond for fear of being cancelled itself.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4598296-here-we-go-again-woman-told-she-cant-have-a-stall-at-a-community-event?page=2&reply=118824697

Isn't this the power of perceived guilt by association? Some of this is as the heart of the moral claims that Peter Daly wrote about in re: CGC and Maya Forstater. It's invidious.

"The adoption of this zero-sum approach arises because of the way that organisations define their own identities: the way in which they view themselves and encourage others to view them. This has a moral dimension, with organisations defining themselves as moral communities. In The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided By Politics and Religion, the moral psychologist Jonathan Haidt refers (p.312) to “moral capital” (p.312) as “the resources that sustain a moral community”. He writes:

“More specifically, moral capital refers to the degree to which a community possesses interlocking sets of values, virtues, norms, practices, identities, institutions, and technologies that mesh well with evolved psychological mechanisms and thereby enable the community to suppress or regulate selfishness and make cooperation possible.”"

Further, by adopting the language and identity of morality, accusations against them of discrimination strike at the core of their corporate identity and threaten their moral capital. Evidence of the immorality of those whose views are at variance with the moral community is not only that those views are at variance with the community, but that they challenge the morality of that community. Such allegations – even where made correctly – are more fundamentally wounding than would otherwise be the case because they strike not just at what an organisation does, but what an organisation is.

www.linkedin.com/pulse/morality-plays-lessons-forstater-peter-daly

The event shouldn't be going on if the first place, these protests help the sunlight flood in far more than chatting on the internet all day.

Do me a favour

if they really wanted to protect kids they wouldn’t go and disrupt an event for children, they’d think of another way to protest, as Tully has suggested

Why are you trying to gatekeep how women protest?

Patriotic alternative is far right.

'Experts in the field of demography, including Professor David Coleman of the University of Oxford, predict that if immigration and fertility rate trends continue as they are doing, then the "White British" will be a minority (less than 50% of the population) in the United Kingdom by the year 2066.
The "White British" are already a minority in many towns and cities including Leicester, Luton, Birmingham, Slough and our capital city London.'- this is directly lifted from their site

Sorry as a non white, non- Brit resident of London, I can't see how I can support this given they are just as likely to hold a protest against me for existing.

Nope. Disrupting events at which young children are present never OK. Picket the LAs offices if you want to protest.

It seems to me that if the desire is to get children comfortable with the idea some people are gay, drag queens (who bear no relation to the gay people one meets in daily life) have no value.
my theory is drag is popular because it’s an aspect of gay culture uneasy straight people can cope with. Glitter, rainbows, costumes, misogynistic jokes - yeah, I feel safe with this. Actual gay men having sexual, loving relationships ? SCREAM 😱