Men Loitering in Women's Spaces

This is the thing though isn't it. Most women, particularly those most affected by this male colonisation of sensitive female spaces, are in no position to make a fuss or speak up and will just quietly cede the space and walk away.

And shop online because no, I really don't want to buy underwear alongside male people, particularly having read the M&S reviews of what some of those male people are thinking and doing to that underwear and to the changing rooms, and how it's changed how I see what used to be just practical shopping. That's a cess pit I really don't want in my life.

Staff on minimum wage and zero hour contracts are under enough pressure currently

That's just defeatist martyrdom. Most shops have security now, all you have to do is identify a member of staff, tell them your concerns and if they shrug it off tell them to get security, or get them yourself.

Should men enter a lingerie dept? If they mind their own business and are aware that it is a sensitive space for some women. Women shouldn't be called neurotic for stating how they feel. Women shouldn't have to police this. Sometimes for the woman, her best strategy is to exit. Staff on minimum wage and zero hour contracts are under enough pressure currently

At the M&S near my mothers house, the cafe is located on a balcony directly over the lingerie section, so you look down on it while having your cuppa and toasted teacake....

I do wonder how well a specialist lingerie shop which only permits female customers would do. It appears that some people would prefer it.
Its always appeared to me though that the shops advertise directly to mem buying for women.

But I don't think the shop floor of a department store which happens to sell underwear IS a women's space.
If there's a creepy guy hanging around clearly watching women or watching what they are buying, that's a different matter that need to be taken up with store security or management.
What you seem to be proposing is a ban on any men entering that section of the shop entirely. I don't think it's fair to suggest that women who don't care about that by extension don't care about women's rights.
I have talked the ear off my husband this last year about what is happening in the world of women's rights. It never occurred to me to tell him to wait outside the shop or go and look at something else while I browsed in the bra section, as if we were living in the Victorian era where a man might swoon at the sight of anything to do with "Ladies items".

Man hanging around changing rooms or toilets with clear intent on making women uncomfortable or watching them? Different kettle of fish.
I think we need to pick our battles and this isn't one of them for me.

The man l encountered in the bra section was actively seeking out women and staring at what bras the women were looking at. It was creepy voyerism. That is not ok. And it's ok to discuss this.

My takeaway from this thread is that some women don't want men in lingerie departments but plenty aren't bothered about it. My biggest takeaway from this thread is that nothing will ever change until people use their words.

Man in the toilet? either ask him to leave, or go outside and find someone else to ask him to leave
Men in the lingerie department acting suspiciously (mostly they are scrolling through their phones while the women they are with try on seemingly identical bras but don't like any of them)? speak to someone who works there. You can be discreet about this.

But there is far from consensus that knicker departments are the exclusive preserve of women.

ineverthought, you shouldn't have to worry about this stuff when you are shopping.

Department stores need to take note of how women are feeling. I know l will avoid changing areas with men hanging around. It will loose them sales.

HRTFT. My partner and I (both of us female) were camping last year and became uncomfortably aware of a man wrapped in a dry towel and flip-flops, hanging around outside the women's showers. He was behaving in an furtive way. My partner had finished showering before me and had stepped outside to wait for me. She asked him if she could help, thinking maybe he had a child or female partner inside, but he walked off muttering. When I joined her and we walked away we noticed him waiting around the side of another building and photographed him opening the door of the women's showers. We then approached him, made it clear that these were the women's showers and directed him to the men's. I also told him that I was going to report him to the site owner, which we did. The owner said he'd deal with it and I didn't see the guy again.

I'd suggest taking your phone out and photographing these men in inappropriate areas.

…entering the ladies. So I can’t understand why it’s necessary for a mother to need her husband with her. In fact, I think it’s controlling not to let her out of his sight.

“I think most women would understand a father taking his daughters into a womens toilet”

No, they wouldn’t. It’s not necessary and we have coped for decades without it.

I work as a childminder with my DH. We have 6 under 5s between us. We still manage taking them to the toilet without the necessity of my DH enter

Then you’ll either have to get over it or shop on the internet.

If you think that there are other people with similar neuroses though you could set up a female-only underwear shop just for them.

The lingerie department is not a female-only space. It is not “yours”, and men have as much right to be in it as you do.

If you can’t handle men being in an area they are fully entitled to be in them the problem is yours, and no-one should be expected to change what they are doing to accommodate your irrational needs.

Women’s toilets are a female-only space. The bras and knickers section in M&S isn’t.

FFS. There are many reasons for men being in lingere departments. If you think someone is acting suspiciously go to the staff and they will have a discreet word. A department store isn't a "woman's space".

It is these reactions that make people point and laugh. Really.

I am the biggest gender critical person I know but even I would not bat an eye at a man in a department store lingerie department. Caveat - unless he was obviously there staring at women shoppers or getting "excited" by the merchandise!
Honestly it has never occurred to me to think specific section of department stores were "female only". It's nothing like toilets IMO - you are not performing intimate and private functions in the middle of a department store.
Men have as much right to shop there. Only this weekend my husband took me to one to pick out some underwear as a gift. I never considered that his presence might be upsetting other women. I have shopped many times in underwear sections of large department stores at the same time as men, and never once felt like they were intruding upon a female only experience or a female only space.
If you are that protective over your underwear shopping I would suggest buying online.
Would men get upset at a woman shopping for her husband or partner in the boxing shorts / Y fronts section?
I don't get the outrage at this at all, and I'm all for protecting female spaces - I just don't think this IS one.
CHANGING ROOM of said department store - ABSOLUTELY.
SHOP FLOOR? - Nope.

gosh i so rarely get called sensible i nearly blushed

I forgot to say this

It was the ladies toilets, he should not have been in there at all. It's funny how the women's toilet becomes the default for anyone who doesn't fancy using the men's. If helping two children go to the toilet required both parents then they could just as easily have used the men's but they didn't and they never do.

Look at any one of the eleventy million threads about swimming pool changing rooms. No child, boy or girl, is ever ever ever allowed in the men's changing room. And even boys up to 10 and 11 are routinely taken into the women's by their mothers and the rest of us have to suck it up (even when the boys are looking at your boobs and saying "boobies" as people have reported on those threads) because GOD FORBID any child be potentially be exposed to a man in a state of even partial deshabilé (sp?)

The answer is, surely, gender free toilets. One toilet for all, and accessible toilets for those who need them (and many more of them please). No urinals, just stalls for all (and yes, i realise that cameras under and over may be an issue here - I'm guessing there is a way round that because so many other places have them).

I also get that there may be a cultural/religious/trauma related reason that women don't like gender free/neutral toilets. Accessble, self contained toilets, are a possible solution to that (because unless confronted with sound accurate numbers that say they would be overwhelmed i will assume the numbers of these people are relatively small.)

So could you.

Men have as much right to shop in-person as you do. The lingerie department of a shop is not a female-only space any more than the men’s underwear department is a male-only one.

Hallelujah! A sensible voice! Thank you!!

I kept seeing this thread title but only moseyed over when it popped up on my Twitter tl.

The only issue i have with the man in the toilet with 2 kids is "wash hands and get out of the way". There isn't space to loiter around the sinks.

But look. I realise people have issues around noises they make in public toilets. People really really need to get over that. So you rustle, fart, splatter or pee loudly? So what. You probably don't know anyone in there and won't see them again. So why not rustle the tampon wrapper and get on with it? The only problem you'd have then is potentially wanting to get to the sinks with bloody hands. Again, why is that a problem for you? he's the one exposing himself to that, so tough tits. The female daughters may as well see it, it's their future.

Everything else in the OP makes my eyes roll so much. It's knickers and bras. Concentrate on what you're doing and don't worry about anyone else? The bra department of John Lewis isn't a "female space" it is a public space, and men buy things there for their wives, girlfriends and maybe even themselves. It's not really a problem. If you really want a man free bra buying experience, IME you get that in a lingerie shop.

It is difficult to take things seriously if conversations like this are plastered all over the place as examples of women's overreactions to everything.

As a woman too I know that you can spot a creep, but you can't assume all men are.

And that's exactly why all men are supposed to be banned from women-only spaces. None of the men in my life are creeps, and none of them would want to go into a women's toilet or changing room. The only way you keep sexual predators out is by banning all men. All decent men respect this.

This never used to be questioned. You can tell the gender identity movement is a male supremacist campaign, because its demands undermine women's rights.

Crikey, I couldn’t even have a woman peering over my shoulder if I was rinsing out a mooncup.