Men Loitering in Women's Spaces

The thing is, many women’s default setting is to be on alert, and many times, their creep warning will flash, probably unnecessarily.

This is life. It just is. And men have NO IDEA what it’s like for many women. Not the first clue.

I’m one of the lucky ones - I’m not overly wary of men as I have no particular reason to be, in that I’m surrounded by good men who have better things to do than hang about on MN and I haven’t had any really bad experiences at their hands (countless low level unwelcome and unwanted experiences, of course, as most women have).

I just find it incredible that men come onto a site overwhelmingly populated by women, repeatedly insist on their right to be in a place that sells goods expressly for women - and expect to be respected for that.

Do what you want. You’re a man coming onto a woman’s website - you clearly will do that, you don’t need me to tell you.

But do not expect many, many, many of us to like it, want it, or respect you for it.

Remember that the next time you’re browsing the lingeries rails, selecting that gift for your, ahem, lucky wife.

It seems to me these were different issues?

The father with the kids seems mainly clueless, which is maybe a reflection of a change in cultural boundaries, or just utter cluelessness. It doesn't seem to have some kind of sexual element.

The creepy guy with the bras is a different story. Quite likely a creep, though I by no means think creep radars are full proof. They can also easily be triggered by people who seem unusual for other reasons. The location is an element in that it can attract creeps, but also make women more inclined to guess someone is a creep. But in general it's not a private woman's space, and it's not unheard of for a man to be there with his wife and to feel uncomfortable, which can look creepy.

I think this one needs his camera roll checking.

I agree with the OP, men should get TF out of womens’ spaces. No excuses. I will challenge every case I see.

Well, here you are - on Mumsnet, no less!! - vociferously and repeatedly insisting on your need to be there. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Oh look, a man has arrived to tell us women we're being ridiculous

When there aren't three women being murdered per week, and women's spaces aren't being taken over in droves by very entitled men with a whole host of motives, some more exciting than others, and men aren't wanking into M&S underwear and hanging it back up and boasting about it on social media, and taking tampons out of sanitary bins to push up their bums and gloat about it on social media about how it was still warm and wet from a woman's body, and women weren't being arrested for saying ffs men have no fucking boundaries or care for women and when they may be in a sensitive space where they impact on women...?

Then I'll have the capacity to care about men's feelings.

Until then, frankly, it's their turn.

I can’t remember the last time I was in one, I had no idea it was the hang-out for the neurotic and unreasonable.

You are being utterly ridiculous, and should be ashamed of yourself.

My over-riding takeaway from this thread is that you really, really need to be in the lingerie department, Kevin.

MOST men are not in the lingerie department to get a cheap thrill

But some are and they don't go around with a sign on their head saying 'pervert'.

Have their EYES down? Is it so shameful buying under garments?
This is crazy.
This has nothing to do with protecting women's spaces and everything to do with making all men feel like crap.
MOST men are not in the lingerie department to get a cheap thrill or to intimidate women. Most men are there accompanying their partners or buying gifts.
I feel like I've just stepped into a Victorian novel.

Any decent man who had respect for women would be more than happy to do that.

Fuck that. Have their eyes down?

No.

Again, the lingerie department at M&S is not a single-sex / woman’s space.

If I’m shopping with my wife (or for her) there is no reason I should not go with her when she’s shopping for new underwear.

I agree with the pp, if men insist on being in the lingerie department or around the changing rooms they shouldn't be on their phones and should really have their eyes down looking at the floor until their wife/partner has finished what she needs to do.

it is going to be a minority, even if it's sizeable - sake of a few women who can't / won't talk to staff, all men must be banned?

Oh I see

If women all make the big effort to complain and try and get something done about the inappropriate men then the appropriate men can benefit from their hard work by being able to be in women's spaces.

No. This is exactly why all men should be banned. It's not the job of women to do the work and be the mummy. It's the job of men to not be bloody inappropriate, and to care about including all female people and thinking about kindness and diversity. Instead of having weaponised those words to get whatever it is they want.

Also: i did say men acting suspiciously.

I'm out. This thread is batshit

well if you all want to be wet lettuces. I simply don't understand, if you're fleeing a potential wanker, why you don't alert the staff on your way out. It might save them walking in on something they might not want to see.

Sorry, but I think you’re being deeply disingenuous.

If I’m popping into a shop in my lunch break, like hell I’m going to involve shop assistants and security staff in some drama.

I’m going to exit and go somewhere else.

Zero anxiety or shy, retiring wallflower here.

I just don’t have the time, inclination or appetite for a social justice campaign in my lunch break.

And I also don’t have any issue with the men who are also clearly in there in their lunch break, doing their shopping, and minding their own business. Who would?

It’s - very clearly - not these men who are the issue.

Woman up has its place, and I am all for encouraging women to get loud, stroppy, assertive and stop being the easy ones to please

but I'm not talking about getting up in people's faces and seeing them off with a flea in their ear. You're feeling uncomfortable so you leave - so why not leave via a member of staff and bring it to their attention?
I'm not entirely daft, i realise that people aren't all "feisty" (I did say that in my other post) but the idea that so many people simply cannot walk to a member of staff and point to someone completely baffles me. Are we to assume that there is only ever one customer at a time?

It just beggars belief that for the - it is going to be a minority, even if it's sizeable - sake of a few women who can't / won't talk to staff, all men must be banned? It's ridiculous.

You'd be surprised. I worked in M&S in my student days. They still had manned counters. I was on men's underwear. Mostly men came and just bought what they needed but you can always tell the ones who had a little fun in mind. They lurk, watching you sidelong with peculiar intensity. Then they'll ask you to hold up underpants so that they can see them properly, or ask you to smooth the fabric, or ask you to come out from behind the counter and hold them up to see if they would fit.
There was one guy who came in every week to my counter and there was always something with him. I told my supervisor and she saw him off. She clued me up about peculiar men. I have never forgotten her warning: ayestyahintyercoonter which is Glaswegian for 'Always stay behind your counter.'
The following summer I went to work in the hospital and there was my pest from the summer before. A doctor in the hospital. KO

That's great, and I make a point of speaking out because other women more vulnerable than me can't. Some of these women are going to include:

Women with Autism
Women who speak English as an additional language
Women who have experienced CSA or DV/DA

Woman up has its place, and I am all for encouraging women to get loud, stroppy, assertive and stop being the easy ones to please, but part of this is accepting that the women likely to suffer most from this male colonisation of female spaces with absolutely no care, (and a movement that reaches very readily for police action, doxxing, trying to get your job lost, trying to get something on your DBS that will mess with your life, or threatening to hurt you just for daring to thwart them), are the ones who will find it hardest to speak up.

And victim blaming doesn't help.

Most women, particularly those most affected by this male colonisation of sensitive female spaces, are in no position to make a fuss or speak up and will just quietly cede the space and walk away.

Why not? I know that i am an overconfident gobshite (my boss says so, so it must be true) and i have punched men for grabbing my tits in the past, so am not a shy retiring violet. And i get that not everyone is like me, but i simply do not understand why, if you see a guy who is potentially wanking over the pants, you can't just go to the nearest shop assistant and point?

I do despair, tbh, when i read over and over and over again on this site (not just this board,all over the flipping shop) that everyone is apparently so gripped by social anxiety they can't take care of their, and other women's safety by doing that one simple thing? It simply cannot be that apparently everyone who posts here was at the back of the queue when grips were handed out?

For our daughters' sakes perhaps we need to pull on our big girl pants and say something?

Instead of telling women how to behave, why not advise the creeps to stop their behaviour?