LGB Alliance to plan helpline with Lottery funding

"insisting that homosexual people must not be allowed to organise"

Absolute rubbish, show me where I have "insisted" any such thing? Stop making up stuff that I've never said.

And you have no idea of my reality, same as you have no idea of the reality of trans people and the horrendous transphobia they face.
Anyone who is close to a trans person knows this reality, You could compare it to the realities face by lgb people decades ago, which you seem more than happy to inflict on trans people now.

And enjoying a Pride Parade is not my "personal reality", not my whole life, it is a happy respite from all the appalling everyday nastiness of transphobia.

I don't know if or how a trans agender person can be gay or straight. I don't know what stonewall would say my sexuality is.

Let me see if I have got the logic clear, which is that 'whatever people call themselves/how they feel' defines their sexual orientation, rather than biological sex:

So we can all agree that a man (male) and a woman (female) are a straight couple.

But gender logic would also say a woman (female) and a transman (female) could also be a straight* couple.

And a man (male) and a transwoman (male) could be a straight* couple too.

Would gender logic agree, though, that a transman (female) and a transwoman (male) are a straight couple?

Likewise, we all agree that a man (male) and a man (male) are a gay couple.

But gender logic asserts a man (male) and a transwoman (male) could also be a straight* couple.

And a transwoman (male) and a transwoman (male) are a lesbian couple, not a gay couple.

Additionally, we all agree that a woman (female) and a woman (female) are a lesbian couple.

But gender logic says a woman (female) and a transman (female) would be a straight* couple.

And a transman (female) and a transman (female) are a gay couple not a lesbian couple. While a transwoman (male) and a transwoman (male) are a lesbian couple, not a gay couple.

However, a woman (female) and a transwoman (male) are a lesbian couple not a straight* couple.

And a man (male) and a transman (female) are a gay couple not a straight* couple.

*where straight can also be synonymous with bisexual or pansexual, if that's how they identify.

With the proviso that it is the trans person who holds the casting vote on defining the nature of the orientation of the couple based on their identity.

Is that about right or have I missed something?

Oh yes, non binary people...

Fuck sake rape culture, not tape culture. Apologies.

Not that long ago we were deep in the MeToo movement, hoping that young women would grow up to feel empowered and stand up to any kind of sexual abuse and hopefully make tape culture a thing of the past.

Yet here we are with lesbians being encouraged or coerced into accepting penises as 'female sex organs' in the name of being inclusive and kind. I don't really see things getting better for women.

I'm sure the LGBA helpline will support lesbians who have been confronted with this issue. Without gaslighting them by telling them they were assaulted by another woman.

Any long time reader or poster will have seen a number of posts from young lesbians saying the same thing on MN.

The fear of being ostracized and isolated from this ‘wonderfully inclusive, tolerant, happy and loving, letting people be who they want to be’ community is very great.

The study from YouGov in December 2021 showed the numbers for the age group of 18-28 people who don’t tell their friends their opinions is large, so much larger than any other age group! Despite the fucked up rhetoric that ‘women fighting for women’s rights are intolerant and that is ok because the next generation is wonderful and loving and so when the ‘dinosaurs’ die off it will be all tolerance and love’. Fucked up because the generation they are talking about has been proven time and again to be exact opposite.

So, yes. I don’t believe any person who writes that everything is ‘wonderful and loving’.

This is happening. It is foolish to deny it is happening.

I have listened to 14/15 year old lesbians tell other lesbians in the group they are transphobic if they don’t do ‘girl duck’. A group of 5 lesbians just got told what is expected of them right then.

That is the damage being done and being denied is being done on this very thread.

Further to the point @DeaconBoo made, if a trans woman were literally a woman in law, how would the lesbians like those in the article even complain? In British law you can't be raped by a woman. Could a 'woman's penis' be used to rape?

This makes me think about how pre 1992 a man could legally rape his wife (this didn't apply to homosexuals though, as marriage for them was still a way off). Women aren't thrilled about enabling new ways to be sexually abused, funnily enough.

no-one is being forced to be attracted to anyone they don't want,

Maybe not forced in any physical sense (although, as always, I don't quite know what this would look like - how do you force an attraction? No-one is saying this is happening?).

But pressured, coerced to sleep with people, threatened if you say you are not sexually attracted to that sex, and:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

Presumably that's OK with you, starlee, as it's not 'force'? Or will you confirm that pressuring, coercing and threatening is also abhorrent and worthy of discussion and people should be allowed to 'be worked up' about it?

"Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested."

Oh. So perhaps the coercion and pressure can actually equate to 'forcing'.
"Lesbians are still extremely scared to speak because they think they won't be believed, because the trans ideology is so silencing everywhere," she said.

""I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me"

THIS is why LGB people need specific support.
But hey, this is apparently a harmonious and happy community.

I am very much not ashamed of myself 😀

Being upfront about your homophobia is one thing Hearach but the emoji is beyond the pale. There is nothing funny about hate.

Deacon

I saw that when I read it. I did wonder whether people would pick it up.

I thought the image was very appropriate, in pointing out that maybe some allies really are not in touch with the thoughts of the wider group of trans people outside their mates.

As we have been trying to say here.

Just like maybe they are not in touch with the ‘majority’ of LGB people outside their bubble as well.

Well, as @Starlee says, some transgender people describe themselves as 'trapped in the wrong body'. Others transgender people reject that idea. As has been pointed out, transgender people are individuals, with wide-ranging views and opinions and motivations.

What Stonewall et al are asking for is to redefine language based on the views of some transpeople, such as the idea 'transmen are men/transwomen are women'. This is very much an opinion and not a fact, as some activists insist, often tagging 'no debate' to the end of the statement. This mantra is not a fact, it is an opinion held by some people, but these lobbying groups trying to change public policy and law based on this opinion.

What we do know, that science and thousands of years of observation have shown us, is that humans are sexually dimorphic, and that using 'man' and 'woman' as biological terms has always served us well as a species. Examples: very different medical needs between the sexes, and as feminists are all too aware, women have been poorly served by patriarchal society, which discriminates against women on the basis of their sex.

Accepting that trans people are the sex they say they are based on their opinions goes against everything rational that we have built our society on and will result in detriment to other oppressed groups. That is not to say that we shouldn't try to support and protect trans people, but that we should find ways to accommodate them into society without detriment to other groups. Rational debate around this issue is badly needed.

If you ask gender critical people, they would say that actually the gender roles and stereotypes that have been forced on people because of their biological sex are damaging and that all people would be able to live their lives more freely without them. Some examples: I'm sure we can all agree that we'd be much better off without toxic masculinity. Men and boys being called 'sissie' and other worse labels if they don't want to conform to masculine stereotypes. I also wish in 2022 that I wasn't happily surprised to see a woman roofer/bus driver/engineer at work.

I can only see that allowing the pretence that trans people are the sex they say they are will further entrench gender stereotypes and perpetuate the harm caused to everyone.

Helle Was that a trans person saying 'most of us HATE the phrase 'trapped in the wrong body'?
Yet some people on this thread insist that this is how they describe themselves and I should ask them if I don't understand it?

In fact, starlee even claims that trans people don't feel comfortable in their bodies - "they feel it is very wrong" - which I believe several trans people have said is an incredibly transphobic attitude, as it buys into the belief that male or female bodies bear any relation to who you are as a person. (Also indicated by people saying minds and bodies can be matched up).

I do understand that many people in the world have body dysmorphia - they are unhappy with their bodies. This in itself no more makes someone trans than being anorexic makes someone trans.

I also understand that many trans people say very vocally that women can have penises etc - that who you are has nothing to do with your body. These are the ones who generally say that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans.

“I mean, I am more specific and want them to die in a grease fire …”

Ironically, anyone wishing the same on world class athlete McKinnon wouldn't need to specify.

Maybe, just maybe some acknowledgement about the reality that everything is not this bubble of ‘everything is awesome’ is warranted.

Maybe there are some people who have some very prejudiced views in society who want the LGB Alliance removed as an alternative for LBG people because they cannot accept that some LGB people have different views.

And maybe there are some people who are determined to be good allies who will ignore the behaviour and the intentions of those people for their own personal reasons, but are still perpetuating the deeply harmful prejudices.

Here is another quote from Rachel McKinnon (who is now Veronica Ivy)

“I mean, I am more specific and want them to die in a grease fire …”

about women who disagree with them.

Another example of the inclusiveness, the tolerance and the wonderful love from males.

And I don’t see people calling that person out! They were still a uni lecturer at the time, and even in April this year were giving interviews on UK media as a trans spokesperson.

That message didn't seem to tag properly so just doing it now @Starlee

@starlee - at best you seem muddled about what you have said yourself or even believe; at worst you seem to be dishonest about it.

This is what you claimed.

"their mind/soul/psyche, whatever you call the essence that makes them 'them' is right, their bodies are right, they just don't match up with each other."

You are the person who introduced the notion that bodies and minds can 'match up with each other'. You have refused to explain this any further (presumably because you don't really understand or believe what you've said).

You also said "And I believe that 'inner being' can feel at odds with the body because I've seen for myself the changes before and after transitioning and it's not something that can be 'put on' if it's not real."

Here you still describe it in terms of the inner being feeling 'at odds' with the body - the definition of this is 'in conflict'. So again, you see it as two different things that can be either in alignment or in conflict.

You also said "I stated that "being born in the wrong body" is how many trans people try to describe how they feel. It is not for us to tell them how they must describe themselves."

You also said "many trans people describe themselves [ as 'having the wrong body, because your kind of true self/soul/personality is only ever found in other types of body'] , as is their right." .

What you "said from the start" is that it is possible for minds and bodies to 'match'. I have spent many posts trying to understand what you even mean by that and you've spent most of the time denying that you said it. You implied that minds and bodies can or can't match. I am asking - how?

Is it simply that you mean "minds and bodies match" when the person is not unhappy with their body?

You have now restated it as 'feeling uncomfortable' with their body, which imo the majority of people in this country would feel - that doesn't make them trans.

So, essentially, you are saying trans people don't like their bodies, but not because they feel any sex should match with any particular gender feeling, just because they have some kind of body dysmorphia?

I genuinely don't understand your claim. You say that a body and mind don't match but 'don't understand' when I ask what a match looks like? Can you try and explain what - to you - a 'match' between mind and body looks like?

Do you just mean someone that doesn't want to change any part of their body?

Here are more tweets from them.

I notice the wording in the top tweet in that thread. It uses the words ‘love’ and ‘solidarity’, right before ‘Bash the fuck’.

Violence aimed at women who disagree with them.

Something to be proud about
apparently. It is in the name.

Here is another example of the wonderful love, inclusion, and happiness of Pride.

ReclaimPrideBrighton 21/06/2022 at 11.44 via Twitter

“if TERFs try to mobilise in Brighton: it will be the last city they ever mobilise in : D”

So tolerant….

Or is this a spoofed Pride account? Happy to see that evidence too.

Excellent point.

If they were really a straight couple, why did someone yell 'faggots' at them?

Because many people think presenting as the opposite sex is a form of being gay/bisexual in itself. This is strengthened by T being associated with LGB. Most transphobia is born of homophobia.

All people have to fall back on when they claim to “feel like” the other sex are stereotypes and their own biased perception of what the other sex should be. And women are far, far more than stereotypes and other people’s perceptions.

Which is not to say the feelings are not real.

But a man's feeling about his body has nothing to do with actual women, just as an anorexic's feeling about their body has nothing to do with other people.

The problem isn't the feeling - it's the projection of this internal feeling onto women - actual real people - and what it means for them and their rights.

Why attach this feeling to female people, specifically? Why can't men just leave women out of it and identify with other "transwomen"? Then at least it would be consensual.

A male declaring they ‘feel like a woman’ can only ever be declaring they feel like a male perception of what a woman is.

Nothing more.

A female only is a ‘woman’ because she has a body formed around the production of large gametes despite whether that production of large gametes has ever, is or will ever occurred. *

There is nothing else that defines a ‘woman’ universally. So how can a male call themself a ‘woman’.

*and before we start down the track of using other people’s medical conditions. Even people with DSDs are either male or female, we have all answered the ridiculous whataboutery before, please stop using people’s medical conditions to force open the categories of female/woman.

Yes I do believe some people are born in the wrong body. But that's not the same as telling children their body is wrong - their mind/soul/psyche, whatever you call the essence that makes them 'them' is right, their bodies are right, they just don't match up with each other.

Starlee, these are your own words.

For the “essence” not to “match up”, i.e. for there to be a mismatch, then for this to make any kind of sense, there must be some logic (even if that’s using the term loosely) which dictates there is a set of essences and bodies which DO match.

The entire concept of transgenderism is predicated upon men “feeling like” they’re women and vice versa. The point we persistently, patiently, repeatedly ask and have been asking for years is: how can a man possibly know he feels like a woman? Which one of the billions of women in the world does he feel like, specifically? His mum? His female boss? Mother Theresa?

Women have persistently, patiently, repeatedly pointed out there is no “woman essence”; that we are all unique in thought and personality and the only commonality is our biology. (Of course we’re ignored when we say this, because we’re only women and so what do we know about being women?)

The only way anyone could accurately claim to “feel like a woman” would be if there was a narrowly and very precisely defined set of “woman personalities” to choose from, each of which was shared without deviation by large enough groups of women to make such definitions meaningful. Then a man could say, with some precision, “I feel like Woman Type A”. But there are no such groups, no such types, no such definitions. I am not the same as you, or as any other woman on this board, or as any other woman in the world. You can say the same.

All people have to fall back on when they claim to “feel like” the other sex are stereotypes and their own biased perception of what the other sex should be. And women are far, far more than stereotypes and other people’s perceptions.

(Yes, even the lesbian ones.)

Does it even register in your mind you are telling lesbians what they are experiencing is non-existent?

While actually ignoring the few selected examples of it happening.. maybe we should post the rest? At least the readers will appreciate it.

For anyone in doubting this is gaslighting behaviour and coercive in nature. DARVO isn’t it? I could be wrong…