LGB Alliance to plan helpline with Lottery funding

That. ^^

Amen to that, @ArcheryAnnie.

Thirty-six pages on, and the bottom line for me is still that gay men, lesbians and bisexual people have every right to organise around issues that affect them, and every right to offer services and support to other gay, lesbian and bisexual people, including younger people.

If you oppose that, then you are a homophobe. There's no way around that.

@Starlee the link you provided keeps saying
For transgender and some gender-diverse people, their gender identity doesn't match the sex that they were assigned at birth

It does not explain what a sex matching a gender means.

I'll ask you an example question: does "female" sex at birth match with "woman" gender in your opinion? How do you define woman gender? ("Define" means describe its unique properties).

Labels are defined in law but there is no law to say which sex or gender you can be attracted to or not, you are free to fancy who you like, age restrictions and familial relationships allowing of course.

That's actually correct! Now can you think of any existing laws where sex and sexuality might be relevant? And then can you work out why correct definitions are necessary?

Gender dysphoria and Body Dysmorphia are 2 different things, you're getting them very confused.

This is entirely my point. You backtracked repeatedly on the 'matching up' comment, as you don't think there is any such thing as minds matching bodies now - and you are now saying all it means is they are uncomfortable with their bodies, which is body dysmorphia.

You seem quite muddled between the two but I can see that any attempts to unpick what you think gender dysphoria is - and why you seemingly think that's synonymous with being trans, which many trans people disagree with - are going to fail because you cannot explain what you mean by minds and bodies matching.

I can only ask one more time:
I have explained this many times. I am talking about one individual who feels they were "born in the wrong body", who feels they, singular, do not match their own body

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? Explain what you understand by it. Explain what a 'match' would be - to you - and what a mismatch is. Otherwise you are using words that you do not understand and expect me to know what it means just by repeating the word 'match'.

I have no concept of what a 'mind' (or soul or whatever) MATCHING a body is.
It's like asking if your race matches your skin colour. Or your height matching your weight. Minds and bodies are different things. If you think there are ways in which they can match - be the same, align, whatever - I am asking you to explain that.

I really don't know what to make of your paragraph:
"You also said "many trans people describe themselves [ as 'having the wrong body, because your kind of true self/soul/personality is only ever found in other types of body'] , as is their right." ."
I can't make any sense of that at all, some of the words are mine (as in ""many trans people describe themselves as 'having the wrong body, as is their right,") but you added a few words of your own (as in "because your kind of true self/soul/personality is only ever found in other types of body") which makes no sense and so the whole paragraph is just a mess of unconnected comments and inexplicably placed punctuation marks!

That just demonstrates that you haven't been following what you yourself have been writing.
I tried to condense the post so it wasn't an endless list of quoted posts as it makes it unreadable. I asked whether the bit in square brackets was true and you said many trans people describe themselves [like this], as is their right.

I am talking about one individual who feels they were "born in the wrong body", who feels they, singular, do not match their own body,

And can you please answer yes/no - when you said all the above - the several claims you made that I copied and posted in one post - in plural (words like "they" "Trans people" "many") - are you honestly saying now that you were talking about one individual?

Do you now see why you are not making sense? You are not posting honestly.

and I have explained many times about "minds and bodies not matching up."

You haven't @starlee - not coherently. Can you answer yes/no: When you say 'minds and bodies not matching up' do you simply mean 'they are unhappy with their bodies'? *What would a matching mind and body be"?

So the question is really:

Do you support homophobia and forced redefinition of the term homosexual?

Do you support conversion therapy or exclusion and punishment for homosexuals who don't comply and who want to be homosexual based on sex alone?

Do you support the denial of a voice or representation to homosexuals who are not compliant with the TQ+ political movement?

Or are you being a useful idiot to a political lobby without fully understanding what it is that lobby is really doing to people beneath the glitter and marketing about 'love' and 'tolerance'?

And to head off the reply you've come up with multiple times that 'The LGBT+ community is all homophobic and fine with it thinks like I do' ....

as has been said multiple times it thinks like you do because the TQ+ political people have driven out anyone who thought differently and dared to say so.

There are very few GC voices in the LGBT community because they were driven out

That makes the LGBT community not a group representing the diverse feelings of LGBT people. It just makes it a political mouthpiece.

Hence the determination to never let homosexual people set up and successfully have a rival political mouthpiece because what they would then say would be damn inconvenient.

Hence the narrative - the LGBA is evil.

Because it's not controlled by TQ+ politics, basically. And has people who will say that sex exists and is the basis for their homosexuality (including the T members, some of whom are well known speakers on this). And that is not something that the TQ+ political lobby want the government or general public to hear. Nor do they want the government to realise that the LGBT+ Stonewalled lobby does not by any means speak for all LGBT+ people. Because it would be really inconvenient to them in achieving their political aims.

The whole reason you joined this thread (remember what the thread is actually about?) is to say that you don't believe homosexual people should be allowed an organisation or representation of their own because to do so is hostile to TQ+ people, and they should not be allowed to run a helpline to talk to gay kids in case they mishandle a TQ+ one. So yes, you are insisting that homosexual people must not be allowed to organise.

Showing me 50 year old evidence does not make it ok to be homophobic and repressive to homosexual people, or to erase and redefine them and support politics that believes in converting or excluding homosexual people for not adapting their sexuality to TQ+ political wishes. That is certainly what homosexual people are facing right now, and it's not something TQ+ people are facing, it's being done in their name. It doesn't matter how sad one situation is for one group, it does not justify being appallingly oppressive to another group. Transphobia isn't a reason to make homophobia ok.

And you know I used to love Pride too. It was a happy respite for me as a homosexual female. It isn't any more. It's excluding, hostile and homophobic. And that isn't because of T people, because 30-40 years ago when I was going to Pride there were plenty of T people there. It's because of the Q+ politics and a hell of a lot of politically activist straight people and 'allies' who are busy harassing and exercising homophobia and justifying it by saying 'but if you only knew a T person like I do....' which in effect adds, (you'd let me be homophobic and shove you out of your own organisation without arguing about it, while activisting to stop you setting up something else of your own where you'd be allowed to exist in peace too.)

TQ+ politics cannot tolerate homosexual people to exist, and certainly not to be allowed a political voice or organisation of their own. Hence the point of this whole thread. The LGBA only has to exist to be intolerable to TQ+ politics.

I have no problem at all with T people, I have T friends, I've been part of groups with T people since my teens .I have a BIG problem with TQ+ politics and how it treats other people. While insisting it's virtuous and kind and inclusive. It's not. Its an appalling movement.

Labels are defined in law but there is no law to say which sex or gender you can be attracted to or not, you are free to fancy who you like, age restrictions and familial relationships allowing of course.

Indeed, but you are not free to subvert or bastardise a legal definition and insist that those to whom the legal definition does apply must accept that it applies to you when it doesn't.

Sticking your head in the sand doesn't make a problem go away you know.
And you really think trans people need anyone to tell them the risks they face in their everyday lives?

"people like you constantly pushing the lie that trans people are the most oppressed people in the country, and that just to step out of their own front doors will cause them to be violently attacked."
Where have I even mentioned either of those things? Why do so many people on here try and put words into my mouth, but never back it up with any proof?

Yes I do. You tend to learn a lot when you are your trans daughter's closest confidante and have many trans friends.

And I have explained many times about "minds and bodies not matching up." and given you links to help you more. I don't expect any thanks but to accuse me of "refusing" to explain is just a lie.

Labels are defined in law but there is no law to say which sex or gender you can be attracted to or not, you are free to fancy who you like, age restrictions and familial relationships allowing of course.

The only person confused on this thread is you @Starlee you have no coherent arguments, no evidence, constantly mixing up and playing fast and loose with definitions which provide legal protection, no logic, fling out damaging accusations and assertions that you cannot prove, and constantly contradict yourself.

"Was that a trans person saying 'most of us HATE the phrase 'trapped in the wrong body'?
Yet some people on this thread insist that this is how they describe themselves"
I said MANY trans people use that phrase, not ALL. That is a fact, not my opinion. They have a right to describe themselves how they like without people like you picking holes in their words.

"In fact, starlee even claims that trans people don't feel comfortable in their bodies"
Discomfort is a very common way of describing it, again they're not my words. Are you telling trans people how they should think? Uncomfortable about parts of your body that don't match your gender identity.

Gender dysphoria and Body Dysmorphia are 2 different things, you're getting them very confused.

For goodness sake, are you being deliberately obtuse?

"This is what you claimed.
"their mind/soul/psyche, whatever you call the essence that makes them 'them' is right, their bodies are right, they just don't match up with each other."
You are the person who introduced the notion that bodies and minds can 'match up with each other'. You have refused to explain this any further (presumably because you don't really understand or believe what you've said)."

I have explained this many times. I am talking about one individual who feels they were "born in the wrong body", who feels they, singular, do not match their own body,
This individual is not saying they are one of a larger group of "a particular type of essence" that does not match with a particular set of body types, they are talking solely about themselves, their own personality, their own body, not a group of souls or bodies..

I really don't know what to make of your paragraph:
"You also said "many trans people describe themselves [ as 'having the wrong body, because your kind of true self/soul/personality is only ever found in other types of body'] , as is their right." ."
I can't make any sense of that at all, some of the words are mine (as in ""many trans people describe themselves as 'having the wrong body, as is their right,") but you added a few words of your own (as in "because your kind of true self/soul/personality is only ever found in other types of body") which makes no sense and so the whole paragraph is just a mess of unconnected comments and inexplicably placed punctuation marks!

@Starlee you do realise that in the UK trans people are very slightly statistically safer than non-trans people? A lot of the fear and mental anguish that many trans people experience is due to people like you constantly pushing the lie that trans people are the most oppressed people in the country, and that just to step out of their own front doors will cause them to be violently attacked. So lay off it. You are actively causing harm to the group you claim to be championing - including, unfortunately, young gender nonconforming people.

Ridiculous post, again twisting what I said and completely missing the point.

"For the “essence” not to “match up”, i.e. for there to be a mismatch, then for this to make any kind of sense, there must be some logic (even if that’s using the term loosely) which dictates there is a set of essences and bodies which DO match."

A trans person who uses the term "born in the wrong body" is just that, one individual person with their own personality, stating that they, themselves, are in the wrong body, singular, not "a set of essences and bodies which DO match."

"if there was a narrowly and very precisely defined set of “woman personalities” to choose from, each of which was shared without deviation by large enough groups of women to make such definitions meaningful. Then a man could say, with some precision, “I feel like Woman Type A”. But there are no such groups, no such types, no such definitions. I am not the same as you, or as any other woman on this board, or as any other woman in the world."
Exactly what I've been saying, there is no "set of essences and bodies which DO match"🙄
But above you say "there must be some logic .... which dictates there is a set of essences and bodies which DO match."
Do make up your mind, either there is or there isn't?

(as I said 6 days ago when you first started claiming that people were 'obsessed with labels').

same as you have no idea of the reality of trans people

And you do?
You're the one who keeps telling us what 'trans people feel' and then refuse to coherently explain what you mean when we are understandably confused by your odd descriptions of minds and bodies not matching up.

Also, you mean 'definitions', not 'labels'. They're what give words actual meaning, rather than just being a collection of sounds or letters. Some people use them to communicate.

Those 'labels' you are so dismissive of are defined in Law and therefore provided protections laid down in Law and Statute, YOU nor anyone else is 'free' to bastardise or subvert those definitions the result of you doing so is to deny the people they actually refer to protection under the Law.

By the way this is the UK not the USA so do please stop flooding this thread with US based articles, etc. The US is, contrary to your belief, NOT the entire world.

You are free to be attracted to whoever you want, regardless of your own or their 'labels', why restrict yourself to strict rules set by others?

Articles from Philadelphia Daily News, 1970 and 1974,