LGB Alliance to plan helpline with Lottery funding

I think it's much simpler to say someone is unhappy with their body. It's true and it doesn't necessitate any belief in souls or a higher being intending certain bodies to match with certain people.

Once we can state that plainly, we can start to identify what the cause of the unhappiness is. Some people feel their bodies aren't feminine enough, because our culture tells us feminine = certain size breasts (for example). Others feel too feminine, for the same reason.

Some people conflate femininity with "being female" to the point where they can't unpick it, and so go on to believe that cultural aspects of femininity means "femaleness".

So many people can't get their heads around the notion that feminity and being female can be mutually exclusive. You can be feminine and male. You can be unfeminine and female. One doesn't necessitate the other. But we are so saturated with the assumption that it does that many people are uncomfortable with acting against it.

There are tons of reasons why people might be unhappy with their bodies, btw. I think of my friend who is becoming increasingly unable to walk. She has never said she was born in the wrong body.

The simplistic take of 'feeling wrong' is very worrying.

The very nature of 'wrong' and 'right' here lacks nuance. The just as simple, they transed and they felt 'right' is also completely ignoring the effect of 'euphoria' on such decisions. What would be very much more appropriate is discussing how people feel in 5 - 10 years and whether they would, in times of complete honesty, make the same decision.

So you don't actually know if "saying something 'is equivalent to' means 'co-opting'"?

Perhaps go and look up what words mean before you use them, eh? Otherwise you aren't exactly discussing in good faith, and also look a bit silly.

The world cannot be forced to revolve around someone's self perceptions when those perceptions are factually untrue, and there are inevitable limits to how far a transition can be taken before it runs up against reality. This is not ever going to change.

I think that this statement artichoke is one that is being stated more and more often.

It is this statement that is also getting more and more direct and, to some, blunt.

Material reality is going to eventually need to be acknowledged.

It's repellent to say to children that their body is wrong I don't know how those who advocate this such a starlee can look themselves in the face. Can you imagine the uproar if that comment was used about disability? It's as revolting as that comment by Glen Hoddle that asserted that those born with disabilities or life damaging illnesses were being punished for misdemeanours in a previous life.

Interesting that this line is trotted out when convenient to the TQ+ political agenda: L and G kids know they're L and G so TQ kids must know too!

And yet lesbian and gay people are being told by the same TQ+ political agenda that they cannot be L and G, homosexuality is like racism, they know wrong and it's all bias and prejudice that they must unlearn, and they must 'learn to cope' with straight sex so they do not distress a TQ+ person who wishes to maintain the uninterrupted illusion of their preferred sex and so identifies as being gay and wanting sex with a gay person.

As this conversation shows: it's illogical, confused, and frankly increasingly unhinged. Be TQ+. Leave L&G and female people and safeguarding people alone. The world cannot be forced to revolve around someone's self perceptions when those perceptions are factually untrue, and there are inevitable limits to how far a transition can be taken before it runs up against reality. This is not ever going to change.

The way forward is to accept and embrace what TQ+ is and find third ways. Not to try and bludgeon everyone into moving reality around until it fits, and cutting out and erasing the people who don't fit. As women have been bounced out of womanhood and gay people are bounced out of LGB.

This is all and only about the panic of LGB being permitted a voice and identity that is not under the control of TQ+ politics.

"And there we have it" Have what?

I see you missed the first question in that post. It was pertinent. Maybe you answered it before or after but I have missed it.

Here it is again

Perhaps you can tell us then why T has been forced teamed with the LGB?

You did attempt to comment on 'why if a trans person was LGB why their needs as a LGB person Will not be looked after by LGB Alliance?', but it was again just to level your own prejudice against LGB Alliance.

I don't think the below is an answer just some more hyperbole..

'I really don't know why they won't help those they don't like, you'd have to ask them that. But it seems if you're also trans, or a trans ally, then that negates the fact that you're also LGB, you're trans therefore you're not "one of them" and are abused, insulted, dehumanised and ridiculed, and classed as 'homophobic' even if you're LGB yourself. And yes, I'm speaking from lived experience of myself and many others that I know.'

If you cannot see why the claim of 'homophobic' is stated against those who have forced open the definition of homosexuality to suit that group's own needs and where it harms those who don't want the definition changed in that way, then that really says a great deal about you.

There was a whole lot of prejudiced hyperbole in the rest of that paragraph.

And here is your answer to the last question.

'And yes "There are supporters of LGB Alliance who are trans". They will be a relative few who have completed the whole process in days when they weren't at the mercy of increasingly long waiting lists - currently up to 7 YEARS for a first appointment a gender reassignment clinic depending on where in the country you live. They see themselves as 'special', genuine, yet denigrate other trans people still stuck in that ever increasing waiting list for treatment, even though they are still covered under the Equality Act as a "Protected characteristic".'

'Of course not all post-op trans come under that label, as ever it's the loudest minority who get heard, the rest are more than happy to support those who are still going through what they themselves have already been through.'

So.. you ARE calling other trans people, who wish to support LGB Alliance as LGB supports 'anti-trans'?

How have you come to this conclusion as to who these trans people are that you can categorise and dismiss them like that?

Who are you, starlee? Who are YOU to tell them this?

Who are YOU to the trans community that you are able to tell trans people that they are 'anti-trans', and to sort them into such categories of those to dismiss and those to elevate?

And do you see the similarity here. You are again ignoring that those trans people you are categorising as 'anti-trans' are also people who are perhaps (from speaking to a few here and other places) very unhappy with the forced redefinition of their situation. Just like many homosexual people.

Who is this group forcing other groups to redefine themselves to suit this group's purposes? In fact, the entire population of the world to redefine themselves forcibly?

You seem to be supporting it unquestionably. Yet YOU are the one here labelling others as 'anti-' and 'haters'. Do you ever wonder at the polarised language you use? And how you have nothing but emotionally manipulative reasoning to prop up your very poor arguments?

Yes.... Here we have it... The lack of any coherent argument and just a whole lot more very prejudiced hyperbole that follows from the rest of your emotionally manipulative posts.

Which readers do you think you are convincing posting in this manner? All you are doing is allowing others who disagree with you to point out the deficiencies in your arguments.

Not once have you posted anything that logically gives a reasoned viewpoint on why LGB Alliance (or anyone else) should not be supported to host a help line just for LGB young people.

All you have done is show in each post just how much prejudice you have against them for disagreeing with your ideological position.

Yet.... even you admitted in that post that being 'T' was not like being 'LGB"'.

You stated it clearly: 'In the past far too many trans kids never knew about gender identities and grew up thinking they were LGB although something still felt 'wrong'.'

Do you think saying something "is equivalent to" means "co-opting"? Yes or no, emiomo ?

Because that would actually explain quite a lot about TRAs, tbh.

In my view, people that insist there's no lgb without the T are equivalent to the "all lives matter" crowd.

It would be great if they could stop "all lives matter"ing the LGB rights movement, but they can't seem to help themselves.

I see starlee was unable to answer my question. As starlee is pushing the idea that trans children's bodies are wrong, I don't think they are worth engaging with. It's such an abhorrent attitude.

We wouldn't sterilise a child without the "trans" label - why should some children be treated with less care?

There have been earnest civil rights discussions when parents proposed sterilising/arresting the development of a girl with profound disabilities so it would make it easier for them to care for her as they aged, over their lifetimes. That's a horrible summary of a complex case but it's an interesting contrast.

As she approached puberty her parents became worried about how they would cope with caring for her. They decided to embark on a drastic series of 'growth attenuation' treatments that would stop this process while also limiting her size.

She underwent estrogen therapy that limited her height - by 2010 she measured 4ft 4", which is about a foot shorter than an average 13-year-old girl.

She also underwent a hysterectomy and had both breast buds removed at Seattle Children's hospital.

Ashley's parents argue that the treatment improved her quality of life and saved her from much discomfort, such as from menstrual cramps. It also meant it was easier for them to help and handle her.

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2115904/Ashley-treatment-Should-parents-stop-disabled-children-growing-up.html

It’s because they are claiming something which is obviously not true. They are claiming to be the wrong sex, but that’s a meaningless statement, as we are our physical bodies, the mind is a function of the brain, you can’t be the “wrong” sex any more than you can be the “wrong” race, or be born to the “wrong” parents.

Spot on @NotKevinTurvey.

Straight, lesbian and gay kids know they're straight lesbian or gay. Why's it so hard to understand that trans kids also know themselves?

Children often don't know their sexuality for certain, though, do they? Frequently not until puberty, and even some time beyond. Lesbians in particular may not figure out that they are until full adulthood, I understand.

The developmental inappropriateness of making children feel they have to apply sexuality labels to themselves, even prepubescent ones, is one of the many complaints we have about this gender ideology.

(Unsurprisingly, there turn out to be a huge number of "asexuals"...)

And when we extend that to "gender" and a "trans" label, we potentially move from "developmentally inappropriate" to "medical malpractice",

We wouldn't sterilise a child without the "trans" label - why should some children be treated with less care?

It's almost as if "trans" is a magic label intended to remove rules for an adult - whether they apply the label to themselves, or to a child.

So, I'm going to turn that around - children often don't know themselves. Why's it so hard to understand that includes "trans" children?

Straight, lesbian and gay kids know they're straight lesbian or gay.

No they bloody don’t, and it’s frankly sinister that you think they do. Children of who are aware of and certain of their sexual orientation are exceptions, not the rule.

It’s because they are claiming something which is obviously not true. They are claiming to be the wrong sex, but that’s a meaningless statement, as we are our physical bodies, the mind is a function of the brain, you can’t be the “wrong” sex any more than you can be the “wrong” race, or be born to the “wrong” parents.

They are probably waiting to see some evidence of a person having an innate gender identity before acting as though it exists.

This campaign to posit some kind of sexed soul and to pretend trans is not a function of gender dysmorphia is doing no-one any favours.

And hopefully they won't signpost the kids to a group openly hostile to trans people!

The hyperbole just continues I see.

Do you ever stop and think about the fact you cannot seem to post anything that doesn’t rely on hyperbole, on polarised thinking, or on emotional manipulation to attempt to convince people?

I know two sets of parents who have told me just how unbalanced mermaids advice has been. One found the advice for teens to be driven by males and not appropriate at all for their young female child.

And yet starlee you seem to be able to accept that those two sets of parents opinions. They are hardly ‘anti-trans’ they both love their teens very much.

No organisation is going to be a good fit for all those who need help.

Why on earth are you so actively attempting to reduce other people’s ability to choose a service that suits their particular needs?

There is nothing ethical about lgba. They set themselves up to openly oppose gender identity, they say it doesn't exist, they say trans kids don't exist, that trans kids are just confused lgb kids. Denial of the existence of gender identity is a hate crime.

You seem unable to deviate from extreme trans activist position.

You just keep repeating tired old trope and misrepresentations that we see on twitter.

Perhaps to back this up, please post the words where LGBA have denied that gender identity doesn’t exist for some people?

And can you please also post the criteria that has been proven to accurately sort children and young people into those who will genuinely persist into old age as their opposite sex gender versus:

-Being one of the 80% that desist by reaching young adulthood
-Being one of those who would detransition but have made such modifications to their body that they cannot.
-Being one of those who do not persist past their early 20s in their opposite sex gender.

I haven’t read a convincing paper on the existence of ‘trans kids’ that would allow any person on this earth to diagnose a child or teen accurately.

So this huge majority of ‘trans kids’ are just what? Collateral damage to supposedly protect the extremely rare % of children who will genuinely persist their transition through a natural lifetime?

And you starlee have no discomfort at all for those that you have relegated to the collateral damage list because you seem to have absolute confidence in the system despite the wide gaping chasms being exposed in treatment?

And you seem to be here discussing ethics with no sense of hypocrisy at all.

I’d still like an answer to my question about how you define trans people who are LGB, Starlee. If a biologically male transwoman is attracted to women, do you think that makes them a lesbian?

Love how GC is being reframed as an ideology, in the same way that female is now being hijacked, how long before basic biology becomes a 'cult movement'?

The TRs have no arguments rather than spitting such words back the other way nonsensically.

An apple is not an orange.

And rejection of gender stereotypes sounds wholly appropriate for children, especially any non conforming gay kids.

Today, Mermaids has evolved into one of the UK’s leading LGBTQ+ charities

Mermaids have been openly and shockingly homophobic from the start. They've recently realised that it makes them look bad, so are trying to backpedal, but it's not working. Homophobia is baked into their very existence.

I'm so relieved that that LGBA exist. All power to their elbows.