LGB Alliance to plan helpline with Lottery funding

Trans people don't all fit into your neat little boxes you know.

No, the TQ+ politics is trying to stuff everyone else into boxes willing or not, and using trans people as leverage.

Homosexuality means sex . Sex is dimorphic and a fixed biological fact through an entire life span. It does not matter what gender someone chooses to be or how that evolves through their lifetime.

It also does not matter if someone of one sex wishes to 'live as' someone of the opposite sex, use those words and create an illusion for themselves and others that they are gay, I'm really not bothered.

What they cannot do is inform me that lesbian now means anyone of any sex and any sexuality who happens to like the word because (according to the political lobby) trans people want this and I need to learn to have unwanted, disliked sex with a male person as some kind of unpaid social service again because (according to the political lobby) trans people want this . That's insane. Womanhood and homosexuality are not up for redefinition. I will not be co operating.

Never ask...

the LGBA was set up with the stated aim of opposing transgender people, they are against transgender, they are anti-trans, they are transphobic. How many more ways does it need saying that this is not a reputable non-discriminatory, unbiased group. They are based on hate and division, like any hate group.

Oh disingenuous claptrap and a whole lot of really high end drama, not to mention being libelous.

The 'anti trans' bit is purely and solely because this group had to organise to give LGB people representation away from the total control, ownership and manipulation of TQ+ politics. The same people who say that being homosexual is like racism.

That's it. That's all.

You can witter all you like about LGB people wanting a separate voice to the TQ+ controlled groups because of their own interests being 'divisive' - you're actually wittering about 'don't let them get away'. You have no care or interest in LGB people you merely want them to stay in their box and continue to usefully serve TQ+ interests. And saying 'no, I won't do as you say and will not indoctrinate kids with this political ideology' is not 'hate'. You really have no idea what actual 'hate' is if you can use it this flippantly. Many of the people who want out of the LGBT+ never ending acronym that is TQ+ political and controlled? They do. They were there.

Absolute bloody ridiculous nonsense.

Matter of interest, what do you call trans women who are attracted to men, and trans men who are attracted to women? Trans people don't all fit into your neat little boxes you know.

transitioned males attracted to other males are gay males.

transitioned females attracted to other females are lesbians.

It really isn’t that hard. And apparently we are told, maybe you missed the memo, that trans people are no longer denying their biological sex.

Actually I don't understand the obsession with 'labels', they make no difference to who or what a person actually is.

That seems very transphobic of you. It is all about the labels isn’t it? Because it is not about the material reality of their situation.

I am not sure what you are actually trying to say with that sentence. But this seems yet another swivel in your argument.

Now you are what? Saying that those who have used the word ‘lesbian’ or ‘gay’ to describe themselves (not a label, but a innate sexual orientation) shouldn’t get upset at having those words forcibly changed to mean something else? Because it is just a ‘label’?

Are you then suggesting that there is no harm being done to those lesbian and gay people in allowing others to define into those categories who are, in fact, the very opposite of the original population in those categories?

Are you still denying the threats and abuse lesbians receive for rejecting males who say they are also lesbians?

Or….

Are you continuing to attempt to obfuscate that you have supported the forced expansion of those labels now with a breezy dismissal of ‘what does it matter anyway’? Just lie back and let those people make those changes, don’t make a fuss.

Despite hearing from numerous lesbians on this thread just how it fucking does matter and how homophobic it is to change the definition to include the opposite sex. Therein making the definition illogical and meaningless.

Each post is shining the light on just how your thinking lacks substantial foundations to underpin what you say. It is coming across confused, and very superficially supported.

They are homosexual. A male presenting as a woman and attracted to other males is homosexual.

No, anorexia is a form of body dysmorphia, just like gender dysphoria is. They are analogous conditions.

Telling a trans identifying male that they are really a woman is the same as telling someone with anorexia that they are really obese.

Where are you getting this idea from that someone’s delusion should be played along with like this?

Why are you so opposed to a helpline for LGB youth? Are you homophobic?

=

Why are you so opposed to sending migrants to Rwanda? Are you racist?

Exactly @Starlee labels do not define who a person is. Biology and facts do. Is why a male can never be a woman or a lesbian. Why are you so opposed to a helpline for LGB youth? Children who believe they are trans would have very different concerns and problems. It would be like telling the endometriosis helpline they had to support prostate cancer sufferers.

Starlee that section of the EA10 protects transpeople from discrimination because they are trans. It does not, as you seem to believe, make the denial of gender identity a hate crime. Its the same as religion being protected just as trans identity is, my denial of the existence of God is not a hate crime so what makes you think denying gender identity exists is a hate crime?

The belief that men are male and women are female aka gender critical beliefs
were deemed worthy as a belief and therefore protected under the EA10 as decided in the Maya Forstater tribunal.

This means that I am allowed to express my belief that humans cannot change sex, I do not believe in gender identity and it is not a hate crime as I have expressed my belief respectfully.

@Starlee needs to educate themselves a bit about the LGB Alliance, instead of posting falsehoods. Starlee, when you understand a bit more, you will (I hope) be ashamed of the homophobia you've been parading here. In the meantime, please just understand that repeatedly yelling "it's haaaaaate group" convinces nobody.

Where have I even suggested that homosexuality is transphobic?, of course it's not!
And you appear to agree with me that trans women and trans men can be homosexual, so what do you think I don't understand?
Actually I don't understand the obsession with 'labels', they make no difference to who or what a person actually is.

"Stonewall, et al, who have bastardised the term to mean same gender attracted which completely undermines the whole basis of homosexuality."
No they haven't changed the meaning of anything, "same sex attraction" means the same as it ever was.
No-one is "undermines homosexuality", myself and most members of these organisations are also LGB so it really doesn't make any sense does it.

Matter of interest, what do you call trans women who are attracted to men, and trans men who are attracted to women? Trans people don't all fit into your neat little boxes you know.

(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.
Equality Act 2010, Section 7 - Legislation.gov.uk

Where did the judgement say specifically that "denial of the existence of gender identity" is a protected belief?

It also said:
"The EAT made it clear that the judgment does not mean that it was expressing any view as to the merits of either side of the transgender debate or that any of the existing protections for people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment under the Equality Act were in any way undermined. Also that it considered that the judgment does not mean that employers and service providers will not be able to provide a safe environment for trans persons."

Gender identity, gender dysphoria and trans people (men and women!) are of course very closely linked. And nothing like anorexia which is a serious mental illness and no comparison whatsoever.

Who said that suggesting that trans people receive counselling is transphobic? Certainly not me, and many do seek counselling, but not to be told they are not women, they need counselling not 'conversion therapy'! Many need more help with the effects of everyday transphobia aimed at them than anything else.

Exactly where have I opposed a group offering to support those who need it? But supporting one group of people does not excuse being openly hostile towards another group of people who also need help, like the LGBA are doing with vulnerable trans people - the LGBA was set up with the stated aim of opposing transgender people, they are against transgender, they are anti-trans, they are transphobic. How many more ways does it need saying that this is not a reputable non-discriminatory, unbiased group. They are based on hate and division, like any hate group.
They are a very small minority of the LGB community, most LGB are inclusive, supporting LGBTQ+ and DO NOT support the LGBA anti-trans stance.

Far from "doing a disservice to the T community" I am pointing out the great harm being done to them by the LGBA and other GC groups who are trying to remove the legal rights and protections of trans people by spreading misinformation and outright lies about them.

It would be very interesting to know how many Mumsnet supporters of the LGBA are actually close to any trans people in their lives, or even know any and how much they actually know about the lived experience of trans people rather than what they're been told by the LGBA? I do speak from experience of being LGB with close trans family and friends.

Only today I've had to unfollow someone on Twitter who I originally followed because she was a gender critical feminist. For years I've not seen anything she's posted that caused me concern. In the last 24 hours she's posted some quite extraordinary stuff about the refugee/ Rwanda situation and has outed herself as racist. I've unfollowed.

Just because you've followed someone doesn't mean you agree with everything they write or believe.

That's what a second account is for, it's very likely that 'your competition' has blocked you so you don't get to see what they're tweeting anyway.

This is why it's best a to have a secondary 'clean' account.

How else can one formulate an adequate argument in defence of one's position if one avoids listening to / reading those with opposing views?

Because Maude, actively seeking to hear other opinions is akin to supporting that person and their opinions it seems.

And why does anyone need to know what others are saying, just stay down the bottom of your silo and listen to the echoes.... and love that confirmation and hate, hate those challenges.

How else can one function in the real world as a person, let alone a campaign organisation?

@10questions10 If you work / worked in PR surely you are very familiar with monitoring the competition? Competitors who are likely to be saying and doing things differently and not necessarily in a way that agrees.

Surely any account that chooses to follow others who have views with which one disagrees is no different? How else can one formulate an adequate argument in defence of one's position if one avoids listening to / reading those with opposing views?

@DeaconBoo "A much cheaper and valuable option would be for Stonewall to set out very clear definitions about what they mean by woman, man and gender identity, so that everyone can at least be on the same page about that. I don't understand why they refuse to do so."

It doesn't really matter how Stonewall assigns any definitions here. In law, a man is a person of the male sex of any age; a woman is a person of the female sex of any age.

In law, "gender identity" does not exist; it is not written anywhere in any law. To do so would be the equivalent of writing any other article of faith into law. Further, if it cannot be defined it cannot be written into law.

The same goes for "non-binary". This is a non-existent status in our law because it is meaningless. Law recognises the natural state of humans as males or females. It is not possible for anyone to be neither male nor female or to be both. It is another fantasy state.

And this crap just continues.

Yes... Caroline Farrow would probably think me a 'sinner'. I don't agree with her on some stuff, I don't even know if I agree on her views on many things. I don't care, I ignore her mostly.

If YOU want to not interact with her on social media, that is your right and your choice. If you feel that she is not entitled to have an opinion that disagrees with yours, well, that says probably just about everything about you. She is entitled to have an opinion. YOU are entitled to disagree. You are entitled to state your opinion to her and discuss it.

An organisation should not be blocking people based on an opinion that is stated without abuse. If a person disagrees with the organisation's policy or their communications, they should be able to make comment without that organisation blocking them.

What a world we live in where those two tweets above from one person who LGB Alliance follows and may or may not have even interacted with recently:

23 September 2020: "Yes, gay sex is a sin as is any sex outside heterosexual marriage. Please see this thread from last night as a basic explainer/primer."

and

23 September 2020: "Why are we debating ay marriage when the issue is about what's taught in schools? However many people believe that marriage is an institution that can only be entered into by 1 man & 1 woman."

.... delivered without any abuse, just a mildly stated opinion, is being used as a reason for LGB Alliance to not be able to start up and run a help line for young LGB people.

And.... posters are proud that they are the allegedly tolerant ones.

It's just so telling who suffers from logic fail, when one incorrectly believes that in twitter land, those who follow/are followed, must mean they 100% support everything that is posted by that person or organisation.

Perhaps it's just repeating what one has been brainwashed to believe? So here is something:

I heard TERFs' like to drink water and eat fruit and vegetables.
If you don't want to be considered a TERF, then stop drinking and eating.
If you drink and eat, then you are admitting to the world that you are transphobic.
If you associate with anyone that eats and drinks, then you are also a transphobic.

Given that people are called transphobic now for stating that sex is real, immutable and biological that doesn’t seem likely.

There are people saying it’s transphobic for lesbians to not consider males as partners, which is clearly ludicrous, but a common TRA belief.

I'm not sure there is ever going to be a way to 'develop my understanding' to the point of believing that homosexuality is apartheid, women should not have equality of access and inclusion and should be subordinated to male interests, and safeguarding should be subordinated to TQ+ political interests.

Not because I do not understand it. But because I do fully understand it and it is wrong. If you want to call it transphobic, you call me whatever names you feel you need to. I could throw a few labels myself, but I don't think it's a particularly adult or helpful way forward really.

So... are you truly saying that people cannot change and develop their understanding and their point of view over 7 years?

It's great that Farrow has developed her understanding and changed her homophobic point of view, give it another 7 years and I'm sure she'll do the same with her transphobic point of view.

Some people just take time I guess.

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