LGB Alliance to plan helpline with Lottery funding

Again, the problem here is that you think statements of fact such as “sex is real, and fixed” are transphobic.

They are right. No young child has gender dysphoria.

So, you can ignore that Stonewall has delivered significant LGB targeted successes, despite them being one of the largest charities / educators about LGB people for decades, because of their work in 'Afghanistan'?

oh Ffs. Has not delivered.

Hi Starlee or Hearach

You might well have missed my earlier question so thought I will ask again.

My oldest used to say that they were a transgirl but, for the last year or so, says that they now see themself as non binary. They also say that they are gay.

From your experience of the current thinking in the LGBTQ+ community, would you say that means my oldest's gay sexual orientation is more likely to be towards male people (ie same sex attracted) or female people (ie same gender attracted)?

Thanks for any clarity you can give.

yes. I believe they were instrumental in that.

I mentioned three achievements from the past two decades - which you've now rejected as immaterial because they are "historic". Well they are not that historic because most LGBT people remember a time before marriage equality. Thank you Stonewall for everything you've done for us!

Coming back to this.

I have not dismissed these events as immaterial. Please show me where I did, and if I need to correct my statement I will.

I said, and you even posted it in your answer:

You wrote, "you can discount the things they have not achieved recently for LGB people as one of the largest charities / educators about LGB people for decades".

I said specifically 'recently'. Maybe you missed that even though you posted it. My sentence may not have been clear, and I will take that criticism as it is very true. Just to put it back into context.

I said "So, you can discount the things they have not achieved recently for LGB people as one of the largest charities / educators about LGB people for decades, because of their work in 'Afghanistan'?"

Let me rephrase it.

So, you can ignore that Stonewall has delivered significant LGB targeted successes, despite them being one of the largest charities / educators about LGB people for decades, because of their work in 'Afghanistan'? ie. you can accuse LGB Alliance of not achieving anything in comparison to ???. What has Stonewall achieved in the UK since LGB Alliance's creation just for LGB people (despite having the amazing goodwill and power that they have earned for decades).

Is that clearer?

I have been also very clear in stating that these events may well have been supported by the founders of the very organisation you seek to portray as 'hateful' and of being of no relevance.

Please post successes that Stonewall have achieved just for LGB people since LGB Alliance has been created .... such as have they denounced those abusing and threatening lesbians for rejecting male partners for example. Have they done this one simple thing?

Before I read the rest of the thread I want to thank you for this. I think the LGB Alliance need my wee donation more than the Trussell Trust do right now so I just went on and changed it. Thank you.

Secondly, they have very few volunteers and most of them are motivated more about having a go at trans people than actually helping gay people.

Again, please provide evidence for this?

Where are you getting this information from that has been verified as to its accuracy?

And please provide evidence that 'most of them are motivated more about having a go at trans people'. Because we are on page 15, and there has been nothing, nothing as yet to show this. Just a whole lot of hyperbole and supposition.

Thirdly, young people are very trans inclusive, so the phones will not exactly be ringing off the hook.

Perhaps you might be surprised to also realise that young people are also some of the least tolerant people in the UK. You can look up the Dr Frank Luntz study published by yougov in July 2021, and the follow up study in December 2021.

I also think that this was a finding in the moreincommon data just released.

www.moreincommon.org.uk/media/p5uln04a/britons-and-gender-identity-data-tables.pdf

P. 22 is the question: How would you feel if your child, sibling, or close family member came out as gay/bisexual/lesbian?

The age group 18-24 reported that 5% would be angry and 6% would be disgusted.

25-34 was 3% & 4%
35-44 was 4% & 4%
45-54 was 2% & 2%
55-64 was 3% & 4%
65+ was 1% & 2%

And by the way, on page 24 that same group reported they would feel 'disgusted' at 7% which again was higher than the other age groups for the question How would you feel if your child, sibling, or close family member came out as transgender?. They also reported higher on 'unbelieving' and 'angry'.

thank you by the way for Starlee* for mentioning that study upthread.

There are several threads on MN looking at the data now. Maybe Starlee would like to check those out. Considering the analytic qualifications of many MN'ers, this is a good place to see what that data says.

So... again, hearache please provide evidence that young people will not be calling LGB Alliance because they are 'very trans inclusive' when it seems very clear that these young people are facing some very negative reactions from 'other young people'.

I mentioned three achievements from the past two decades - which you've now rejected as immaterial because they are "historic".

They're not immaterial - they're just as much LGB Alliance's achievement as Stonewall's, given the way that the people involved back then have ended up split between the two organisations.

The current Stonewall organisation is running down the goodwill generated by the historic actions of both current LGB Alliance and Stonewall members.

LGB Alliance is continuing the original work of Stonewall supporting gay and lesbian rights.

The current Stonewall is undermining its original work by calling homosexuals "sexual racists".

Didn’t stonewall get a conference cancelled that would have helped LGB people all over the world when they threw their teddy out of the pram? Where was stonewall’s concern for LGB people then? There were people coming from countries where even the suspicion of being L or G will get you killed. Those people were let down because Stonewall prioritised the T. Maybe we do need an organisation just for LGB as stonewall cannot seem to handle dealing with both groups needs

Do you believe trans people are like "vegan cats"?

Remarkable isn't it?

Again you seek to misrepresent what has been said. And you don't seem to understand the significance of that misrepresentation.....

Hence why I asked you to go back to the actual tweet thread and discuss it in proper context.

Why are you so reluctant to do so?

You wrote, "you can discount the things they have not achieved recently for LGB people as one of the largest charities / educators about LGB people for decades".

I mentioned three achievements from the past two decades - which you've now rejected as immaterial because they are "historic". Well they are not that historic because most LGBT people remember a time before marriage equality. Thank you Stonewall for everything you've done for us!

Yes, what have they achieved just for LGB people in the past few years.

And you mentioned three major events.

2000 - Armed forces accept LGBT people
2003 - Section 28 repealed
2014 - same sex marriage.

Can you now provide the evidence that members:

Allison Bailey
Kate Harris
Simon Fanshawe
Malcolm Clark
and Bev Jackson

Were not part of Stonewall's team or their affiliates fighting for each of these?

Wouldn't it be a crazy thing that you posted those three events and those founders were part of the teams that delivered them?

"I am not an expert on LGBT matters, and I never have been."

Very true! I would go away and educate yourself before commenting on matters you clearly have very little expertise on. Take yourself down to a gay bar and chat with a few of the locals. They will be more than happy to educate you! You will quickly find how harmonious relations are between all the different sections of the rainbow family - no matter how much the LGB Alliance may wish otherwise.

As I said, I am pointing out the logical fails in your arguments. Because all I can see is the extreme prejudice that you are posting. By the way, I too have some very close family members and friends who are LGB and they do 'educate' me constantly.

I am also very aware of how that 'harmonious relations' you declare is quite a lie if I listen to my lesbian friends in different countries who tell me the same thing. It has not been 'harmonious' for decades, if ever. If you have not experienced it, that is great. But I know that it is not the universal experience you are trying to convince people of.

And I am very happy to be 'educated' by you, too. Except that you keep posting things that incredibly prejudiced and seem to lack any evidence. In essence, not one post across different threads is credible and supported by evidence.

So, again... those 'gotcha' statements you keep posting are really not what you think.

All you are showing is your own extreme prejudices that you cannot deny.

You will quickly find how harmonious relations are between all the different sections of the rainbow family - no matter how much the LGB Alliance may wish otherwise. 😀

Oh I missed this bit! So relations are harmonious, and LGBA want them not to be? So they're harmonious, except for with these LG or B people. So not harmonious then?

Umm.....what?

Stonewall was at the forefront of the campaigns to repeal Section 28, the ban on LGBT serving in HM Armed Forces and the legalisation of gay marriage.

Stonewall didn't always support gay marriage.
web.archive.org/web/20211104150235/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/stonewall-is-split-by-row-about-samesex-marriages-2095468.html

Interesting snapshot here, including an 'attack' re Stonewall's website saying they are for LGB people. www.libdemvoice.org/stonewall-gay-marriage-21378.html

Easy for history to get re-written, isn't it?

Umm...Pride is for all LGBT people. Except these ones over here, they're not welcome.

Umm...what?

This is just a mechanism for them to real in some £££. It'll go the same way as their Jubilee film i.e. in the bin.

You know quite well why the Jubilee film didn’t happen. Are you saying you disapprove of the behaviour of the transactivists who complained?

You can’t simultaneously condemn LGB Alliance for not doing anything and then endorse the people who sabotage their projects.

80% desistance rate ...

One year old can't talk but I do believe trans people when many write that they knew they were trans at a very early age.

If the LGB Alliance do not know this, they do not know much about trans people and should stop commenting on a matter they are clearly ignorant about:

www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/01/young-trans-children-know-who-they-are/580366/

I would be very surprised if this switchboard ever happens.

Firstly, there already is one (they seem to be unaware of this in their post).

Secondly, they have very few volunteers and most of them are motivated more about having a go at trans people than actually helping gay people.

Thirdly, young people are very trans inclusive, so the phones will not exactly be ringing off the hook.

This is just a mechanism for them to real in some £££. It'll go the same way as their Jubilee film i.e. in the bin.

Do you believe trans people are like "vegan cats"?

That simile is used regarding “trans children” because they aren’t making the decisions themselves. It’s stating the obvious.

Do you believe that a one year old girl removing her barrette is signalling she’s trans? Or could that interpretation just possibly be a projection from the adults in her life?

You wrote, "you can discount the things they have not achieved recently for LGB people as one of the largest charities / educators about LGB people for decades".

I mentioned three achievements from the past two decades - which you've now rejected as immaterial because they are "historic". Well they are not that historic because most LGBT people remember a time before marriage equality. Thank you Stonewall for everything you've done for us!

"I am not an expert on LGBT matters, and I never have."

Very true! I would go away and educate yourself before commenting on matters you clearly have very little expertise on. Take yourself down to a gay bar and chat with a few of the locals. They will be more than happy to educate you! You will quickly find how harmonious relations are between all the different sections of the rainbow family - no matter how much the LGB Alliance may wish otherwise. 😀

Stonewall was at the forefront of the campaigns to repeal Section 28, the ban on LGBT serving in HM Armed Forces and the legalisation of gay marriage.

It was. And most of the founders of LGBA were involved back then.

But then Stonewall needed a new cash cow & chucked LGB rights under the bus in the process.

Do you believe trans people are like "vegan cats"?

When the LGB Alliance get off their arse and do something useful like helping LGBT people get out of a dangerous country like Afghanistan get back to me

Did you read the title of this thread, by any chance?

Stonewall was at the forefront of the campaigns to repeal Section 28, the ban on LGBT serving in HM Armed Forces and the legalisation of gay marriage.

Right.... so you are relying on historical events before they switched their attention to 'T'?

And can you tell me whether the co-founders of LGB Alliance were or were not still heavily involved in those actions being part of Stonewall.

Great 'gotcha'.

Surprised that someone who seems to think themselves such an expert on LGBT matters didn't know that.

I am not an expert on LGBT matters, and I never have. I am responding to the paucity of logic to any of the arguments that you have posted.