LGB Alliance to plan helpline with Lottery funding

And as a disabled people I can tell you that of course we know our bodies are wrong, it's what being 'disabled' actually means: "a person who has a physical or mental impairment". Shock horror!

As a disabled people - you sure as hell cover all the bases don't you @Starlee?

Stonewall supports all LGBT people. So if the Government suddenly became pro-trans people but anti-gay it still would not attend. Because all the letters matter 😀

Did you actually READ my post there earache?

I mean.... did you? Really?

"Published on Thursday, the report reveals widespread acceptance that a trans woman is a woman and a trans man is a man, with 46% agreeing, 32% disagreeing, and 22% who don’t know, with agreement highest among younger generations."

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jun/16/britons-not-bitterly-polarised-over-trans-equality-research-finds

Great to see the young are the most pro-trans of any generation! And this is the generation the LGB Alliance thinks will be calling them up to discuss how trans people are like "vegan cats"? I think this unlikely.

[I] am very grateful for Stonewall for the part it played [in the evacuation of LGBT people from Afghanistan]

yes, isn’t it great to have multiple organisations with a plurality of aims and focus?

And there you have it. Are stonewall’s aims now not to support LGB people? Are you saying that stonewall supporting LGB people would be like a pro choice org going to a pro life conference? So you admit trans rights and LGB rights are in conflict? That’s good to hear the truth coming out.

Forgive me if I think this is not a group worthy of respect or public funds.

but that’s ok because you’re not in charge of dispensing all public funds, and some of the people who are have chosen to give some to LGBA to deliver a service which I and they think is necessary

Yes because the current Government has made trans hostility a policy - e.g. not banning conversion therapy for trans people.

Why should Stonewall attend something a conference organised by someone who does not share their aims?

Should a pro-choice org go to a conference hosted by a Government seeking to restrict access to abortion?

Correction- LGBA called for all licensed sex premises to be closed for a limited time period.

When was LGBA formed?

I mentioned three achievements from the past two decades - which you've now rejected as immaterial because they are "historic". Well they are not that historic because most LGBT people remember a time before marriage equality. Thank you Stonewall for everything you've done for us!

Coming back to this.

I have not dismissed these events as immaterial. Please show me where I did, and if I need to correct my statement I will.

I said, and you even posted it in your answer:

You wrote, "you can discount the things they have not achieved recently for LGB people as one of the largest charities / educators about LGB people for decades".

I said specifically 'recently'. Maybe you missed that even though you posted it. My sentence may not have been clear, and I will take that criticism as it is very true. Just to put it back into context.

I said "So, you can discount the things they have not achieved recently for LGB people as one of the largest charities / educators about LGB people for decades, because of their work in 'Afghanistan'?"

Let me rephrase it.

So, you can ignore that Stonewall has delivered significant LGB targeted successes, despite them being one of the largest charities / educators about LGB people for decades, because of their work in 'Afghanistan'? ie. you can accuse LGB Alliance of not achieving anything in comparison to ???. What has Stonewall achieved in the UK since LGB Alliance's creation just for LGB people (despite having the amazing goodwill and power that they have earned for decades).

Is that clearer?

I have been also very clear in stating that these events may well have been supported by the founders of the very organisation you seek to portray as 'hateful' and of being of no relevance.

Please post successes that Stonewall have achieved just for LGB people since LGB Alliance has been created .... such as have they denounced those abusing and threatening lesbians for rejecting male partners for example. Have they done this one simple thing?

yes. I believe they were instrumental in that.

Secondly, they have very few volunteers and most of them are motivated more about having a go at trans people than actually helping gay people.

Again, please provide evidence for this?

Where are you getting this information from that has been verified as to its accuracy?

And please provide evidence that 'most of them are motivated more about having a go at trans people'. Because we are on page 15, and there has been nothing, nothing as yet to show this. Just a whole lot of hyperbole and supposition.

Thirdly, young people are very trans inclusive, so the phones will not exactly be ringing off the hook.

Perhaps you might be surprised to also realise that young people are also some of the least tolerant people in the UK. You can look up the Dr Frank Luntz study published by yougov in July 2021, and the follow up study in December 2021.

I also think that this was a finding in the moreincommon data just released.

www.moreincommon.org.uk/media/p5uln04a/britons-and-gender-identity-data-tables.pdf

P. 22 is the question: How would you feel if your child, sibling, or close family member came out as gay/bisexual/lesbian?

The age group 18-24 reported that 5% would be angry and 6% would be disgusted.

25-34 was 3% & 4%
35-44 was 4% & 4%
45-54 was 2% & 2%
55-64 was 3% & 4%
65+ was 1% & 2%

And by the way, on page 24 that same group reported they would feel 'disgusted' at 7% which again was higher than the other age groups for the question How would you feel if your child, sibling, or close family member came out as transgender?. They also reported higher on 'unbelieving' and 'angry'.

thank you by the way for Starlee* for mentioning that study upthread.

There are several threads on MN looking at the data now. Maybe Starlee would like to check those out. Considering the analytic qualifications of many MN'ers, this is a good place to see what that data says.

So... again, hearache please provide evidence that young people will not be calling LGB Alliance because they are 'very trans inclusive' when it seems very clear that these young people are facing some very negative reactions from 'other young people'.

I mentioned three achievements from the past two decades - which you've now rejected as immaterial because they are "historic". Well they are not that historic because most LGBT people remember a time before marriage equality. Thank you Stonewall for everything you've done for us!

Coming back to this.

I have not dismissed these events as immaterial. Please show me where I did, and if I need to correct my statement I will.

I said, and you even posted it in your answer:

You wrote, "you can discount the things they have not achieved recently for LGB people as one of the largest charities / educators about LGB people for decades".

I said specifically 'recently'. Maybe you missed that even though you posted it. My sentence may not have been clear, and I will take that criticism as it is very true. Just to put it back into context.

I said "So, you can discount the things they have not achieved recently for LGB people as one of the largest charities / educators about LGB people for decades, because of their work in 'Afghanistan'?"

Let me rephrase it.

So, you can ignore that Stonewall has delivered significant LGB targeted successes, despite them being one of the largest charities / educators about LGB people for decades, because of their work in 'Afghanistan'? ie. you can accuse LGB Alliance of not achieving anything in comparison to ???. What has Stonewall achieved in the UK since LGB Alliance's creation just for LGB people (despite having the amazing goodwill and power that they have earned for decades).

Is that clearer?

I have been also very clear in stating that these events may well have been supported by the founders of the very organisation you seek to portray as 'hateful' and of being of no relevance.

Please post successes that Stonewall have achieved just for LGB people since LGB Alliance has been created .... such as have they denounced those abusing and threatening lesbians for rejecting male partners for example. Have they done this one simple thing?

This ^^

Kind of is the evidence of the stalemate, isn't it?

Because in objective reality this happened. There's the evidence. The interviews on radio (Women's Hour I think for both, radio 4) and the written interviews published in the mainstream newspapers. It's objective, it's verifiable, anyone can go and listen or look for themselves and hear the exact same evidence anyone else can.

But in some people's personal realities this did not happen, does not exist, and you must not say that it does.

You cannot have a reasonable discussion with someone who lacks the capacity to be reasonable and is operating mostly out of a reality that exists in their own head, with no shared meaning, who sees objective evidence as threatening and hostile, and perceives anyone mentioning it as ill treating them.

You can be sorry for them, but you can't really have any kind of meaningful conversation that is going to get anywhere.

The important point is that policy, law and which gorups are permitted funding cannot be affected or involve instruction from those operating in this personal reality way. It's ridiculous it's wandered into being through a lot of well intentioned and rather soggily sentimental niceness and keenness to show what a nice, progressive person one is without basic common sense, sense of responsibility and boundaries.

What absolute rubbish! No-one is telling them they "cannot be L and G, homosexuality is like racism" etc or that they "must 'learn to cope' with straight sex".

The comment about lesbians being like sexual racists was from Nancy Kelley, the CEO of Stonewall. Also, at Allison Bailey’s recent tribunal, a Garden Court Chambers barrister repeatedly drew parallels between the cotton ceiling (lesbians not being attracted to biological males) and apartheid in South Africa. I’m linking to Sonia Sodha’s excellent article for easy reference but there are plenty of other citations.

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/29/if-lesbian-prefers-same-sex-dates-thats-not-bigotry-desire-personal-thing

Learning to cope with straight sex came from cyclist Veronica Ivy, formerly Rachel McKinnon.