LGB Alliance to plan helpline with Lottery funding

There seems a determined ignoring of the statement from Nancy Kelley and the incredible comparison from Cathryn McGahey and the statement by McKinnon that lesbians should cope with penis in vagina sex to accommodate the ‘needs’ of transitioned males.

I mean, we have been asking now for pages and pages and pages.

And nothing….

Well maybe starlee really cannot see it when people who agree with starlee say such outrageously egregious statements. Wasn’t there a doubling down where it was declared that ‘no-one’ was saying it?

The quote has been posted in this thread too. So it is not like it can be denied being made.

To repeat Empressaurus' question

Is Nancy Kelley’s line that homosexuality is equivalent to racism helpful to a young LGB person?

An lgba helpline really aren't going to tell any trans kids who who aren't sure that they really are trans, they will tell them they are gay or lesbian

I would hope they would, as Helen Joyce said...

We need to reduce the amount of people who transition as they are a huge problem to a sane world.

Indeed @ZombieMumEB i used to be in the ‘be kind’ brigade until I unintentionally offended a TW by asking a question. I got told to ‘educate yourself’. So I did. It did not turn out the way the TWAW brigade wanted. I had questions, they responded with the same phrases as @Starlee. I realised they had no concrete arguments so here I am, now totally GC. Worst thing for their cause is tell people to educate themselves.

When I say 'trans woman' I mean exactly that, not a man. So a trans woman who is attracted to a woman is a lesbian.

That’s what I thought you meant. And the part about Nancy Kelley of Stonewall and the barrister at Allison Bailey’s tribunal both equating lesbianism (the old-fashioned same-sex-attracted kind) with racism….????

How many more times? Yes, I would consider a trans woman attracted to a woman to be a lesbian.

So you deny the existence of same sex attracted women by appropriating their name, this is homophobia. Do you also support conversion therapy for lesbians?

@Starlee
No I don't believe in a 'greater being' as in a god etc, but I do believe there is a soul, essence, that inner being or whatever you choose to call it that makes a person uniquely them.

So, a personality?

@Conflictedunicorn
@starlee so you say as a non trans person you cannot understand how a transperson feels. So how could a male understand what is I’d to ‘feel like a woman?
One of the many areas where applying logic and critical thinking skills to the TRA trope, shows how it's all horseshit nonsense.

@starlee so you say as a non trans person you cannot understand how a transperson feels. So how could a male understand what is I’d to ‘feel like a woman? No male is a woman and no female is a man. Are you claiming transpeople have magical powers not gifted to the rest of us poor mortals, or are you starting to realise that this cannot be possible.

No I don't believe in a 'greater being' as in a god etc, but I do believe there is a soul, essence, that inner being or whatever you choose to call it that makes a person uniquely them.

And I believe that 'inner being' can feel at odds with the body because I've seen for myself the changes before and after transitioning and it's not something that can be 'put on' if it's not real.

Yes I'm trying to explain things as I know it, but I'm not a trans person and with the best will in the world I can't put myself in their shoes and truly understand how they feel, but I care enough to try and do support them 100%.
And that doesn't mean that I'm homophobic which some here have accused me of being.

An lgba helpline really aren't going to tell any trans kids who who aren't sure that they really are trans, they will tell them they are gay or lesbian which can only cause harm to the trans kids..

Did you actually read what you posted here?

Would you like to clarify this, or are you happy that it comes across as you now saying a helpline should be telling a child that they are trans or not?

And either way, we are back to asking you for evidence that LGB Alliance helpline staff will be telling anyone who is and isn’t ‘trans’ or even ‘LGB’.

Got any evidence of that?

Did you contact the LGB Alliance directly, as I suggested, to get confirmation on how they would advise any caller on a specific issue?

But please clarify if you mean to say that any helpline should be telling any child they are trans? It could be a typo which is fully acceptable on this a forum without an edit capability.

How many more times? Yes, I would consider a trans woman attracted to a woman to be a lesbian.

Sounds like you've run our of things to whinge about so now you're making things up. You need to get a life.

Thank you. That gave me quite a laugh. My comments about your persistent lack of coherent argument and evidence to support your too frequently hyperbolic claims is me ‘whinging’.
Too funny.

I could tell you to similarly get a life but In truth, your posts have provided a live demonstration of the tactics of extreme activism and the lack of solid foundation that those activist points of view have

I am not speaking as "a spokesperson for ALL trans people" I speak for the people I know and have spoken to.
No-one is claiming to have been "appointed as a spokesperson for ALL trans people": Show me where exactly I have claimed "the authority to declare who is worthy of being called trans and who is not?"

Did you not post the below as a description of the only people who would be ‘trans’ that support LGB Alliance.

“"There are supporters of LGB Alliance who are trans". They will be a relative few who have completed the whole process in days when they weren't at the mercy of increasingly long waiting lists - currently up to 7 YEARS for a first appointment a gender reassignment clinic depending on where in the country you live. They see themselves as 'special', genuine, yet denigrate other trans people still stuck in that ever increasing waiting list for treatment, even though they are still covered under the Equality Act as a "Protected characteristic".'”

“'Of course not all post-op trans come under that label, as ever it's the loudest minority who get heard, the rest are more than happy to support those who are still going through what they themselves have already been through.'”

So, in effect, with this absolute statement, I believe you have placed yourself in a position of arbitrating who is and isn’t ‘trans’ amongst LGB Alliance supporters. That is the problem with making such absolute statements.

I would suggest that LGB Alliance likely has a wide range of trans people who support them, that will have a wide range of opinions. What they will have in common is that they believe that LGB people need to have a voice separate to the TQ+ people and therefore support an organisation that does that.

By the way, any evidence of trans people who are supporters of LGB Alliance denigrating other trans people? Surely you can support this particular claim …

No I haven't, don't tell me what I've confirmed, I mean what I said, you are twisting it to what you believe, different thing entirely.

When I say 'trans woman' I mean exactly that, not a man. So a trans woman who is attracted to a woman is a lesbian.

And being Bi I know exactly what LGB means thank you. I don't know what they mean by 'alliance' though, they're certainly not allianced to the majority of the LGB movement who actually welcome the TQ+.

@Helleofabore

Kids in the past didn't have access to info like they do today, they assumed they were gay because that's all they'd heard about. And then finally they realise, often after many years, sometimes decades, that they are actually trans and everything becomes clear. THAT is what you will be told over and over again if you actually listen to trans people talk of their own experiences, they're not my words.

So, were they males sexually attracted to males or females attracted to females?
You acknowledge that they could have benefited from support to identify if they were L, G or B so they could have worked out their needs earlier.
Yet you are attempting to deny young people today greater access to services that can assist them?

No I didn't say that, stop twisting my words.
And who they were attracted to is irrelevant here.

The trans kids I'm talking about assumed that they were gay, or lesbian, because they knew no better but knew they were 'different'. They needed help much earlier to identify that they were actually trans, without having to endure the wasted years of not understanding.

An lgba helpline really aren't going to tell any trans kids who who aren't sure that they really are trans, they will tell them they are gay or lesbian which can only cause harm to the trans kids..

@Starlee

It would depend on whether you believe a trans man or trans women are who they say they are. I do.

So you believe that this is a woman:

www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/sex-beast-carried-out-campaign-7207216

That's a serious question, by the way - not a 'gotcha'. 'Rose Whitby' says Rose is a woman. Do you believe Rose?

Once again, I have never opposed support for LGB people. What concerns me about the LGBAlliance in particular is that if a young trans person phones them for help (mistaking them for an inclusive lgbt+ helpline) they are highly unlikely to receive UN-biased help, they won't immediately be re-directed to a more inclusive helpline but will no doubt get the usual lgba spiel of "more likely to grow up as lesbian or gay", which is no help to a young trans person.

Why would a trans person be calling LGB Alliance helpline for help or advice about a trans issue? And if a trans person called about a LGB issue, why wouldn’t the person provide ‘UNbiased’ help?

You can provide no evidence for your claim that LGB Alliance would either NOT refer them immediately to a helpline that is more suitable for the unique need of that trans person if they are not calling about an LGB issue, OR would say anything about ‘more likely to grow up as lesbian or gay’.

Instead, you have continued to make hugely prejudiced claims. You have accused an organisation of being unable to provide a service for LGB young people on LGB issues, to the same standard as any other LGB only group, yet you don’t seem to be able to link up one shred of evidence to support your claim.

It is how a lot of trans people describe how they feel. Who are we to tell them they're wrong to say it?

They can say what they like, I don't have to believe it. Just as when someone says they have had a conversation with God, that's fine, I will most likely just nod politely, but if they say God told them that I was a witch and they should burn me, I'm going to have something to say about their belief, truly felt though it may be.

I have no idea why you feel this is relevant to what I actually said in that post….

I have already answered you. Can't remember the exact words but it would have been along the lines of asking your oldest yourself, they can give you far more clarity on their sexual orientation than a stranger can. Everyone is different, there is no 'one size fits all'.
As far as I'm concerned anyone can be attracted to whoever they want, regardless of sex, gender or labels. It's the actual person that matters for me, and if the other person feels the same.

@Starlee
What concerns me about the LGBAlliance in particular is that if a young trans person phones them for help (mistaking them for an inclusive lgbt+ helpline) they are highly unlikely to receive UN-biased help, they won't immediately be re-directed to a more inclusive helpline but will no doubt get the usual lgba spiel of "more likely to grow up as lesbian or gay", which is no help to a young trans person.

Are you insulting the intelligence of young trans people?

What service is better:

• one that knows the difference between sex, gender and gender identity and knows the law in regards to the Equality Act?

• one that conflates all 3 terms and is part of an organisation that lies to others in regards to the Equality Act, because they don't understand the law?

It would depend on whether you believe a trans man or trans women are who they say they are. I do.
But in that one instance I made a typo, "A trans man attracted to a man I would call gay, you would probably call them straight" (not lesbian of course).

And is Nancy Kelley’s line that homosexuality is equivalent to racism helpful to a young LGB person?

And where am I supposed to have confirmed that? It's not for me to confirm anyone's sexuality but my own.

And heterosexual people can support whoever the hell they want, doesn't mean I have to agree with them. Stop making things up.

@Helleofabore "And yes, they are actually allow to provide a service just for LGB Alliance and not specifically to support 'trans people' being trans. That is a 'discrimination' that is allowed in law exactly for this purpose."

Once again, I have never opposed support for LGB people. What concerns me about the LGBAlliance in particular is that if a young trans person phones them for help (mistaking them for an inclusive lgbt+ helpline) they are highly unlikely to receive UN-biased help, they won't immediately be re-directed to a more inclusive helpline but will no doubt get the usual lgba spiel of "more likely to grow up as lesbian or gay", which is no help to a young trans person.