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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Reasons to Resist "Third Spaces"

69 replies

GCRich · 10/06/2022 13:25

Obviously I am not proposing that men who identify as trans should be in women's spaces. But what are the reasons to resist third spaces? I'm not looking for a debate - there are abviously reasons for third spaces - I'm just trying to consider whether there may be a fair few good reasons to resist them.

(1) It is tough enough on small businesses that they (rightfully) have to provide third spaces to people (disabled people) who literally cannot access single sex spaces. Giving them further obligations based on feelings not physical need is an unreasonable requirement. It is also tough on the taxpayer when government has to provide third spaces. I can imagine some small business owners becoming transphobic when they realise they have to spend thousands of pounds on building works for a "problem" that has never arisen in their workplace and which counters their legally held views that TW are men, end of.

(2) Some women with trans identities might feel obliged to use third spaces and thus find themselves at greater risk from men that they would have been had they just used women's spaces. The very existence of third spaces might increase the risk of harm to some women.

(3) Trans women don't get validation from third spaces so they are 100% unwanted by the main people who theoretically need them.

(4) We need to bring people together as much as possible - not divide them. Single sex spaces make huge amounts of sense for various reasons. Providing one accessible toilet makes sense (whereas making every single male or female toilet accessible makes much less sense as it would cost too much and take up too much room and would be a disproportionate way of providing for the disabled). But dividing people even further by creating more spaces - when the truth is we are all simply men or women at the end of the day - makes no sense.

(5) When a group ignores boundaries and the truth and courteous debate and instead seeks to bully and threaten and make people feel uncomfortable then one has a moral obligation to resist giving them an inch, for to give an inch is to reward their behaviour, which can only risk encouraging them and people like them. It reminds me of the slogan "we don't negotiate with terrorists".

(6) The third spaces would risk becoming a target from those men who do genuinely hate trans people. Trans people are at risk from transphobic violence (I am not sure whether they are significantly at risk in the UK, I doubt it, but the risk is there) wherever they are. Walking down the street, in the appropriate single sex spacecs for their sexed bodies, in opposite sex spaces, in a pub, in a shopping centre - they could be attacked out of the blue anywhere. But to actually create a space which violent transphobes know to go to if they want a victim could create more harm than good.

OP posts:
Fifteentoes · 10/06/2022 17:29

Why is it important to you to find reasons to resist them?

The point of not allowing trans women in female spaces is to avoid infringing against womens' sex-based rights. Achieving that, but then deciding that it isn't enough for you - that you still then have to make sure the trans people don't "get" something they shouldn't, for some vague debateable philosophical reasons even when it makes not a blind bit of difference to your ability to enjoy your protected space safely - starts to cross over into genuine transphobia.

I'm happy for trans people themselves you work out what's the best way of meeting their requirements, if they can do that in a way that doesn't compromise anyone else's.

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 10/06/2022 17:28

FacebookPhotos · 10/06/2022 15:02

I disagree with your points because:

  1. Small businesses often only have a single toilet with adequate provision for both sexes as well as being accessible and single occupancy. They wouldn't need to change a thing
  2. Wouldn't be an issue if messaging, signage and implementation was clear - toilet options are women (single sex), men (single sex), mixed sex for anyone unable to use the toilet which is provided for their sex.
  3. Lots of trans people don't want validation. They deserve to be catered for. As do dads with daughters, mothers with sons.
  4. Provision of public toilets which provide privacy and dignity for those unable to use single sex spaces is not segregation (which would be bad), it is meeting the specific needs of some groups (trans people, families etc) and that is a good thing.
  5. Trans people are not terrorists - hyperbole really doesn't help anyone. Besides which, we do negotiate with terrorists. Peace in Northern Ireland was only achieved once people were willing to negotiate with those they considered terrorists.
  6. Prevalence of being trans in the UK is so low that using mixed-sex toilets would mostly mean seeing dads with their daughters or mothers with sons. Unlikely to be a place for actual transphobes to try to find a trans person.

I agree with all this.

I can understand the 'that's not my problem to solve' position, but I can't see any justification for opposing third spaces which enable women's single sex spaces to be single sex spaces.

GCRich · 10/06/2022 17:16

Hoardasurass · 10/06/2022 16:52

@GCRich I think that you missed my point. Right now we have basically lost all of our single sex spaces (atleast here in Scotland) and they are effectively mixed sex already because a certain lobby group has convinced our government that it's against the equality act to do anything other than have single gender spaces (ie mixed sex) so if it takes making 3rd spaces available to trans people and/or making it a criminal offence for anyone over 7 to enter the opposite sex facilities (barring medical emergency etc) then I will take it

Entirely fair. I am coming at this from the point of view that single sex spaces need to be provided under the law of the land and any normal moral perspective, and that 3rd spaces are a simple add-on option that we can choose to take.

OP posts:
ramabanana · 10/06/2022 17:08

@GCRich A unisex facility would allow anyone including effeminate men and families, it isn't trans specific. Women are used to very young male children being brought into female spaces, but boys at a certain age will need to use the mens or a unisex facility.

Luckily I think it's pretty obvious to even transacivists that a toilet for every gender can't be built so I don't think that's a valid concern even if they start asking for it.

Everyone should use their sex based toilet, but if there has to be a compromise to keep most spaces single sex then a 3rd space option should be explored. If a unisex space is legally mandated then trans people have two options (including their own sex toilet) and women should be given the rights to challenge transwomen in the single sex spaces again. We should be able to now but that isn't the reality.

Hoardasurass · 10/06/2022 16:52

@GCRich I think that you missed my point. Right now we have basically lost all of our single sex spaces (atleast here in Scotland) and they are effectively mixed sex already because a certain lobby group has convinced our government that it's against the equality act to do anything other than have single gender spaces (ie mixed sex) so if it takes making 3rd spaces available to trans people and/or making it a criminal offence for anyone over 7 to enter the opposite sex facilities (barring medical emergency etc) then I will take it

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 10/06/2022 16:51

So an additional alternative mixed sex space is all that is needed. Where this cannot be done the male facilities should be rendered mixed sex

yep

in the theatre the mens bogs were mixed sex as well but I couldn’t go in there cos it’s mainly urinals, for some reason (dh reckons laziness) there were loads of men in the ladies, including ds1 which was a bit weird

GCRich · 10/06/2022 16:34

ramabanana · 10/06/2022 16:10

@GCRich I don't think anyone is suggesting another space 'just' for transwomen plus another one 'just' for transmen. Or any of the other genders that exist or have yet to be discovered. It isn't an option unless a business has the space and money to accommodate.
If trans people don't feel comfortable using the toilet allocated to their sex, a 3rd unisex option is the only practical solution if you intend to keep single sex spaces as well, whether they find that is validating enough is not anyone else's problem.
There needs to be a single sex option which women can use and challenge the presence of males in (and the other way around).
You can't justify not using a 3rd space based on safety and dignity for trans people if the only real solution to separate men and transwomen (gender based spaces) reduces those for women instead.
Men and women are not the same and that's why we have single sex provisions in place. Equally as important yes but not the same.

Where does it stop? What if TMs and TWs start demanding separate spaces?

Why should trans people be specially accommodated? Plenty of people don't like public toilets. Should effeminate men who feel uncomfortable in male toilets be entitled to their own special spaces, or should they be lumped in with the trans? I can see a lot of women taking their 8 year old son into the women's toilets in preference to following a TW into the mixed sex toilets.

I would strongly argued that mixed sex toilets for parents with children should be provided before and in addition to mixed sex spaces for trans people.

If trans people don't feel comfortable using the toilet allocated to their sex, a 3rd unisex option is NOT the only practical solution - telling them to get on with using the single sex spaces every other person has to use is a perfectly reasonable response. Not every demand is a reasonable one!

I wonder what percentage of trans people would use mixed sex spaces provided for them, and what percentage of TW and TM would continue to use the women's? Would some TW continue to use the men's on the basis that they know they were never welcome in women's spaces and why should they make TM feel uncomfortable in trans spaces?

OP posts:
ramabanana · 10/06/2022 16:10

@GCRich I don't think anyone is suggesting another space 'just' for transwomen plus another one 'just' for transmen. Or any of the other genders that exist or have yet to be discovered. It isn't an option unless a business has the space and money to accommodate.
If trans people don't feel comfortable using the toilet allocated to their sex, a 3rd unisex option is the only practical solution if you intend to keep single sex spaces as well, whether they find that is validating enough is not anyone else's problem.
There needs to be a single sex option which women can use and challenge the presence of males in (and the other way around).
You can't justify not using a 3rd space based on safety and dignity for trans people if the only real solution to separate men and transwomen (gender based spaces) reduces those for women instead.
Men and women are not the same and that's why we have single sex provisions in place. Equally as important yes but not the same.

MaudeYoung · 10/06/2022 15:43

@GCRich "Therefore trans people need to be in their own single sex spaces,"

How so? The men who claim they are not men seem quite content to render female single sex spaces to mixed sex. The women who claim they are not women seem quite content to render male single sex spaces to mixed sex. Mixed sex is the environment that is preferred by those who reject their natural sex. So an additional alternative mixed sex space is all that is needed. Where this cannot be done the male facilities should be rendered mixed sex.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 10/06/2022 15:39

3rd spaces and single sex are the way to go in my opinion

we went the the Hammersmith lyric the other day and they’d made the ladies into mixed sex but (according to ds1) there were single sex toilets on another floor

so id be happy with that

and according to other posters there are a lot of women that would be as happy as larry to use a mixed sex toilet so that would be cool

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 10/06/2022 15:36

My only real issue with it is that you give no consideration to those men (and I am sure that there must be some) who want to have single sex spaces away from women

Well as I said, not my problem. I don't see a large number of men standing up for my rights. So why hold me to a different, higher standard of care?

but I have no problem with you not having the time or energy to fight that theoretical cause!

Why thank you. I shall take that as permission to carry in working for vulnerable women in crisis.

NewNamePrivacyneeded · 10/06/2022 15:29

A separate toilet for different groups women, men, non binary, trans men, transwomen, disabled..... unicorns not feeling any of the above day

Or do a individual toilet with access to all so not a group toilet with cubicles/urinals and separate for disability since some people require more room or a carer in with them.

Artichokeleaves · 10/06/2022 15:19

GCRich · 10/06/2022 15:04

@Artichokeleaves

"I just expect that all groups get that consideration and care for their needs"

Sorry to be blunt, but you don't. Where does it stop? Why should TW and TM be forced to share the same toilets? Why should NB people share with either? Why should Christians get there own special toilets away from muslims?

Well obviously what those third spaces look like is something as yet to be determined, but it seems unlikely that rows of stalls are going to work and it's more likely to be self contained single room units that would help and suit more people. And I'd suggest that as yet neither Christian nor Muslim people have raised any issues about privacy and dignity being a problem for them in sharing facilities together and ending up with some unable to access a resource at all in the way that it is for some biologically female people in using a mixed sex space.

But ok, if you don't agree you're not compelled to, diversity of opinion is fine.

Discovereads · 10/06/2022 15:14

@ifIwerenotanandroid
No, because single sex provision for women means that even violent men generally don't go into women's toilets, if they think they will be seen going in there

Violent misogynists actively looking for a female victim are absolutely known to attack women/girls in womens toilets. Single sex toilets are a mild deterrent to violent men. It’s safer for women/girls to have them than not have them. But I wouldn’t call them particularly safe.

GCRich · 10/06/2022 15:04

@Artichokeleaves

"I just expect that all groups get that consideration and care for their needs"

Sorry to be blunt, but you don't. Where does it stop? Why should TW and TM be forced to share the same toilets? Why should NB people share with either? Why should Christians get there own special toilets away from muslims?

OP posts:
FacebookPhotos · 10/06/2022 15:02

I disagree with your points because:

  1. Small businesses often only have a single toilet with adequate provision for both sexes as well as being accessible and single occupancy. They wouldn't need to change a thing
  2. Wouldn't be an issue if messaging, signage and implementation was clear - toilet options are women (single sex), men (single sex), mixed sex for anyone unable to use the toilet which is provided for their sex.
  3. Lots of trans people don't want validation. They deserve to be catered for. As do dads with daughters, mothers with sons.
  4. Provision of public toilets which provide privacy and dignity for those unable to use single sex spaces is not segregation (which would be bad), it is meeting the specific needs of some groups (trans people, families etc) and that is a good thing.
  5. Trans people are not terrorists - hyperbole really doesn't help anyone. Besides which, we do negotiate with terrorists. Peace in Northern Ireland was only achieved once people were willing to negotiate with those they considered terrorists.
  6. Prevalence of being trans in the UK is so low that using mixed-sex toilets would mostly mean seeing dads with their daughters or mothers with sons. Unlikely to be a place for actual transphobes to try to find a trans person.
GCRich · 10/06/2022 15:00

ramabanana · 10/06/2022 14:46

  1. Infrastructure is costly so would be a pain to implement I agree
  2. Are you suggesting women are in danger when needing to share facilities with transwomen? Using that logic would it not be the same if transwomen used female toilets?
  3. The most likely reason why it's opposed but quite frankly that isn't a problem for women to deal with or have sex-based rights eradicated for
  4. No idea what you are on about here, I don't feel emotionally divided with men because I don't want to piss next to them, it's not a bonding ritual
  5. This isn't just an inch, it's a serious infringement on sex only spaces where women are in a vulnerable position
  6. Do violent males (whichever way they identify) being able to enter single sex facilities to attack or harass women not bother you in the same way?

I am 100% in favour of single sex spaces. This thread has nothing to do with single sex spaces, it is SOLELY about whether 3rd spaces are desirable.

On my point (4) I was just trying to get across that we are all humans together and that we should all be treated the same as much as possible. Two obvious examples of where we treat people differently - rightly - is providing wider toilets for wheelchair users and making toilets single sex not mixed sex. My problem is with creating more division. Why should be divide the group of toilet users who can be defined as "able bodied men" into sub-groups and give them different facilities? If we are to given some men another space based on their identity (ie "I see myself as a woman so I don;t want to use the men's") then why not to other men (eg "I am meticulous about hygene, unlike many men. I require special toilets for people who leave public toilet cublicles spotless on exit")

OP posts:
Discovereads · 10/06/2022 14:47

Artichokeleaves · 10/06/2022 14:25

There are many reasons for third space toilets (which are not the same thing as an accessible toilet for wheelchair users). For example, parents needing to accompany opposite sex children and older children/teens with additional needs is a common challenge that third spaces would meet. Plus if someone says that they feel uncomfortable and that their need for privacy and dignity cannot be met in a single sex space then having a non sexed alternative seems a reasonable and feasible adjustment.

I just expect that all groups get that consideration and care for their needs, and that female need for privacy, dignity and single sex space is as equally respected as necessary for their inclusion and access. There should be answers that work for everyone.

My thoughts exactly. Very sensible.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 10/06/2022 14:47

@GCRich 'I can imagine some small business owners becoming transphobic when they realise they have to spend thousands of pounds on building works for a "problem" that has never arisen in their workplace and which counters their legally held views that TW are men, end of.'

Call me cynical, but I see it as more likely that some small business owners would become more misogynistic & blame the women for not just taking on the owner's problem, budging up & letting TW share their toilets.

ramabanana · 10/06/2022 14:46
  1. Infrastructure is costly so would be a pain to implement I agree
  2. Are you suggesting women are in danger when needing to share facilities with transwomen? Using that logic would it not be the same if transwomen used female toilets?
  3. The most likely reason why it's opposed but quite frankly that isn't a problem for women to deal with or have sex-based rights eradicated for
  4. No idea what you are on about here, I don't feel emotionally divided with men because I don't want to piss next to them, it's not a bonding ritual
  5. This isn't just an inch, it's a serious infringement on sex only spaces where women are in a vulnerable position
  6. Do violent males (whichever way they identify) being able to enter single sex facilities to attack or harass women not bother you in the same way?
GCRich · 10/06/2022 14:45

Discovereads · 10/06/2022 14:06

“2) Some women with trans identities might feel obliged to use third spaces and thus find themselves at greater risk from men that they would have been had they just used women's spaces. The very existence of third spaces might increase the risk of harm to some women.”

Transmen/nonbinary women currently use both the mens and womens toilets. Having access to gender neutral toilets would be no more dangerous and perhaps even less dangerous as other users of those toilets are more likely to also be trans and so much less likely to bump into a transphobe who decides to aggressively confront you (or worse) on your choice of toilet.

I think it is very very naive to assume that a woman who is trans would be safer in mixed sex toilets than in the women's toilets provided for her sex.

OP posts:
GCRich · 10/06/2022 14:44

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 10/06/2022 14:06

I no longer care. This is something that men need to work out for themselves.

  1. Transmen - do they use men's loos and are men OK with this?
  2. Transwomen - do they use men's loos and are men OK with this?
The insistence on making it something for women to solve is the problem. I'm slinging it back to those who caused the issue in the first place.

My transman friend uses male loos. He (his terminology) has never had any issues.

Transwoman friend used to use women's loos but, way before I spoke up, had decided that this was a bad idea. He (his terminology) uses men's loos or does the full bladder dance until he gets home.

Neither of them think they have changed sex. Both have 'lived as the opposite sex' for decades and have been somewhat ousted from their decades long trans communities by TRAs. They both say they know many others in the same boat.

Which is why I don't believe there is an actual problem to solve!

I have a lot of sympathy with that view. My only real issue with it is that you give no consideration to those men (and I am sure that there must be some) who want to have single sex spaces away from women, but I have no problem with you not having the time or energy to fight that theoretical cause!

OP posts:
ifIwerenotanandroid · 10/06/2022 14:41

@Discovereads /6

No, because single sex provision for women means that even violent men generally don't go into women's toilets, if they think they will be seen going in there - because any decent man will challenge them, to protect women. Also, women are entitled to challenge any man who's in a female single-sex toilet.

Anyone wanting to say (a) women are just as violent as men - no they're not & even if they were, a woman my size is less of a threat to me than a man a foot taller than me, or (b) I must be very unaware of what men do - I'm not, & I stopped using one set of remote toilets after a man hid in there under cover of darkness & murdered the first poor stranger who went in there.

GCRich · 10/06/2022 14:41

Artichokeleaves · 10/06/2022 14:25

There are many reasons for third space toilets (which are not the same thing as an accessible toilet for wheelchair users). For example, parents needing to accompany opposite sex children and older children/teens with additional needs is a common challenge that third spaces would meet. Plus if someone says that they feel uncomfortable and that their need for privacy and dignity cannot be met in a single sex space then having a non sexed alternative seems a reasonable and feasible adjustment.

I just expect that all groups get that consideration and care for their needs, and that female need for privacy, dignity and single sex space is as equally respected as necessary for their inclusion and access. There should be answers that work for everyone.

I am very comfortable with the idea of providing for people whose wheelchair does not fit into the normal single sex toilets. I am very comfortable with the idea of providing for people who have to accompany their opposite sex child.

I am uncomfortable with the idea than "ordinary" men and women use single sex spaces, and everyone else get's lumped in together even if their needs have NOTHING to do with each other.

OP posts:
ifIwerenotanandroid · 10/06/2022 14:35

@Artichokeleaves It's the 'there's the desired conclusion now lets look for a convincing reason to get it' thing.

Thank you. I've been trying to come up with a phrase for this, having felt it since I first became aware of the general debate, years ago.

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