Reasons to Resist "Third Spaces"

Toilets can become a haven for sex, drugs, vaping, etc

Anywhere where the establishment is responsible fir the health and wellbeing of the people there will need to think carefully and conduct risk assessments on the set up.

In some settings they couod pr8ve problematic. That's not to say that they don't also have advantages. But a set up like that at say a school or a college where not only do the children and teenagers have no choice to be they do have disadvantages.

We have a toilet like this at work for customer use. On occasion people have shot up in there.

Privacy is great for so many reasons . But unless you have an alarm in every single toilet you do also run the risk of people getting sick.hurt or injured or attacked in fully enclosed toilets.

In public recreational facilities I can make a choice to be there or not to be there.

In.a school, college,.hospital,workplace etc not so much.

I think its something like 1 in.3 or one in 4 miscarriages happen/start in public toilets. If no one knows you are there as no one can see feet under the door you could be there fir hours.

This is a very strange objection to fully enclosed toilets considering they already exist in lots of settings such as on trains or in small cafes. Even where toilets are single sex they can still be fully enclosed if they are in a smaller location where only one or two toilets are being provided - not all toilets currently exist as rows of cubicles with shared sinks. Currently almost all accessible toilets are already fully enclosed - you can just include an emergency pull cord in the toilet for people to use if needed.

I can understand those who wish to maintain single-sex toilets but as long as these single-sex toilets continue to exist I genuinely don’t understand why anybody would care whether mixed-sex toilets are also available? So long as there isn’t a law that trans people have to use these spaces instead of those that match their sex what does it matter? Surely it’s up to transmen/ transwomen to decide whether they’d feel safer in a mixed-sex toilet or the toilet that matches their sex and not for others to protest against them because they might be less safe?

If you don’t wish to use a mixed-sex toilet then obviously don’t, but I don’t see how offering them as an option could be a bad thing? Mixed-sex toilets already exist in lots of places (Eg: trains, planes, smaller restaurants/ shops etc, accessible toilets) and I don’t think in most cases they cause any issue?

Already for several years I have been to small venues with a corridor of unisex fully enclosed lockable rooms with sinks.

I’d definitely support 3rd space toilets. I would use them when going out with my kids as the oldest is 8 but large for his age but gets v anxious going places by himself and due to pandemic has not had that many opportunities to go out in public places and use the toilet with DH. We need more of them. For smaller venues fully enclosed lockable rooms with sink that are unisex are fine.

Hence the need to retain single sex standard cubicles and contained single unit rooms that are mixed sex/gender neutral and disabled accessible toilets.

Third space needed in addition to the two already existing: sex based and disabled accessible. People then choose the best fit, and everyone has a minimum of two options with an alternative if they prefer not to use the sex based facilities.

And at that point, everyone can stop moaning about it, and has no further excuse for the relentless predation on anything female only required for their sex based access that is solely about misogyny.

U less you alarm every single one? But who's gonna pay for that amd staff it?

Then you have the worry of anyone who say, has epilepsy, asthma, allergies, miscarriages etc where being in a fully enclosed space with no gap under the door, well they could lie there for hours in trouble and not be seen.

Or we start building truly accessible toilets. Completely enclosed, can be used by a single person at a time whether man, woman, wheelchair user, parents with any age of children, trans etc As someone mentioned above these things are tough at the start but quickly become the norm. A good example is ensuites in hotels. At one time almost unknown, now very few rooms without them

During one of the parliament committee meetings Rosa Friedman pointed out that if you want to change the status quo (sexed toilets) then the onus is on those wanting the change to prove that it will be safe for women's toilets to be used by others. I've been watching to see and so far it's not going at all well. I no longer care about any trans demands. I am holding the line for women and children.

Everyone should use the toilet for their sex. Easy solution.

Which leads you to wonder why these anti women activists can only be satisfied by seeing females having lost .

They have to have less.
They have to be subordinated.
They have to be excluded if non compliant.

They have to be willing to be controlled or they have to be punished. Answers that work for everyone not only won't do, they are unsatisfyingly wrong because there's no loss involved that rights the original sin of being female.

I often wonder how much this lot are all secretly Catholics in denial.

Yes to men's, women's and 'All inclusive'
But not good enough for anti-women activists

Well they would solve alot of problems.in theory although I don't think they newing in schools. Children need adults to protect them until they figure out how to protect them selves. Kids shouldn't be put in the position of having to choose between their safety and being good ally or validation of their identity.

But we all know they'd go unused because the point is not safety its validation. It would be a waste of time and money. Stonewall could have done this years ago and be done by now. If theor own people won't solve the problems why should anyone else bother at their own expense

Was this a new build with appropriate and representative planning?

Or were dis/proportionate spaces taken from either the men's and women's to make this inclusive space?

No longer give a damn about trans people's demands. Fuck off out of single SEX spaces, end of.

When a group ignores boundaries and the truth and courteous debate and instead seeks to bully and threaten and make people feel uncomfortable then one has a moral obligation to resist giving them an inch, for to give an inch is to reward their behaviour, which can only risk encouraging them and people like them. It reminds me of the slogan "we don't negotiate with terrorists".

For me, this is the really salient point.

I was listening to Andrew Doyle’s podcast discussion with Arielle Scarcella today and they both made the point that yes, thee is still illegal discrimination against transgender people, but that the complete capitulation that TRAs are demanding is disproportionate.

it was interesting hearing two gay people discuss the impact of TRA demands on the discrimination gay people also face.

There is a group of TW campaigning for third spaces, Miranda Yardley is part of it. I believe Debbie Hayton also?

There are also many women who say they are perfectly happy to use mixed sex spaces, plus the parent/child need, family group need, carer and ambulant disabled person where they don't need direct help but someone in calling distance to make sure they're safe, etc etc. It would be a genuine step forward in accessibility if done right, and presents everyone with an alternative to sex based provision if this is uncomfortable for them.

It just needs to come with respecting that some people require sex based spaces for equality of access. And that's the real sticking point.

The idea of third spaces was put forward as a negotiation point / offering to appease the men that wanted to ensure that women were not allowed our own spaces. What we got was that they couldn’t possibly manage anywhere else but in the female facilities. Ok . negotiation over. Now I and many others are determined that such men need to campaign as men to make sure they are accepted into their own sex based spaces. We will defend our own to the end, it is no longer something we will engage with in the spirit of compromise.

@GCRich There is a problem right now with transwomen in womens spaces regardless of what the law says as other posters have already pointed out, so yes the mixed space option is very important and could solve a massive issue. There are TW out there who will attempt to use female toilets regardless and currently women cannot object or call the police, they'd be likely to be arrested themselves for a hate crime.

Ultimately there is no option that would please all parties 100%, this is a solution that would be relatively easy to implement, allows for single sex spaces and gives trans people an option outside of the sex they've identified out of.

This compromise may be what allows women to say no again with legal backing, it shouldn't be that way but its how it is.

Can we not just have men’s, women’s and ‘all inclusive’ toilets? This was the case at a school I worked at and it was a great system.

Just to check your preference is to keep single sex spaces?