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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Waitrose delivery driver

633 replies

MsMoorhead · 09/06/2022 08:16

Kellie Jay-Keen reported by her Waitrose delivery driver!

OP posts:
Discovereads · 13/06/2022 16:15

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 13/06/2022 12:33

I’m expecting the next move to be a claim that they’ve got a very simple proof that doesn’t fit in the margins they did in fact describe gender identity clearly and coherently several pages ago and they aren’t going to copy and paste it for the benefit of lazy people who can’t be bothered to read the thread properly.

Not far off. First for the poster eagerly checking in for a “promised” explanation of gender identity, there was no promise or statement of intent to do so from me. Sorry to disappoint, but I’m not falling for the faux innocence “oh I just don’t know what gender identity is, please tell me”. You all know what it is. So quite simply, no I’m not going to copy and paste the terabytes of information regarding gender identity.

Bowednotbroken · 13/06/2022 13:22

Just a point about Waitrose delivery drivers although I appreciate the thread has moved on - I've been using crutches or sticks around the house for months now, and if my husband hasn't been around every single delivery person has brought all the crates into the kitchen for me. Some have helped unload them too.

ArtAndLit · 13/06/2022 13:12

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

RumpBelle · 13/06/2022 13:04

Saving Discover the effort...

Waitrose delivery driver
BoreOfWhabylon · 13/06/2022 13:00

(I never get tired of that one!)

BoreOfWhabylon · 13/06/2022 12:59

Whereas KJ is very very clear
"I just don't think they're women"

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 13/06/2022 12:37

Can you point me to some videos etc that might change my mind?

I do not recommend asking this unless you are exceptionally patient! They’ll point you to some longwinded idiot rambling on for sixteen hours.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 13/06/2022 12:33

I’m expecting the next move to be a claim that they’ve got a very simple proof that doesn’t fit in the margins they did in fact describe gender identity clearly and coherently several pages ago and they aren’t going to copy and paste it for the benefit of lazy people who can’t be bothered to read the thread properly.

GCRich · 13/06/2022 11:58

@discovereads

One more thing. Can you recommend any youtubers or podcasters or bloggers who are able to present the Stonewall / TRA perspective in a coherent, compassionate and persuasive way? My move from "TWAW, #bekind" to "this is exceptionally dangerous on a number of levels and needs stopping now, I will never mis-sex someone again" did come down to a variety of things (good GC arguments, being abused as a bigot for having sexual orientation being two of them). But as much as anything the reason that I now completely reject "TWAW, #bekind" is because no-one on your side has ever presented an even vaguely convincing case. You have offered practically nothing of value on this thread, yet I would honestly say that your ability to construct an argument put you in the Top 5-10% of TRAs, maybe even the Top 1%.

Can you point me to some videos etc that might change my mind?

NancyDrawed · 13/06/2022 11:58

Discovereads · 13/06/2022 06:19

I can describe to you what money is.But you can't describe to me what gender identity is

Not that that you’ve ever asked, but I can describe to you what gender identity is. There are countless articles and entire books written about gender identity by scientists, philosophers, journalists and regular people. It’s in the dictionary FFS for anyone to look up if they so wish.

I think the issue is that you know very well what gender identity is, and I’m sure you can actually describe it but you have an internal personal belief that rejects it.

Thanks for this Discovereads, I too would love to hear your definition of what gender identity is. I base my current position on what I have been able to find out about gender ideology, but gender identity has been a bit of a tricky one to understand for me. I told ds that I didn't have a gender identity as he had been having some LGBT lessons in PHSE and he asked me what things I liked and how I felt about myself and once I'd answered said that meant my gender identity was 'woman'. I pointed out that no one knows how anyone else feels, seeing as it is personal to the individual who is feeling those feelings and that the rest was stereotypes and if I preferred 'man' things would that make me a man?

Luckily he has said that gender ideology has been taught as belief not fact at his school (year 7).

GCRich · 13/06/2022 11:53

A gender identity cannot be defined. All that can be defined is what people who claim to have a gender identity seem to mean by it.

People who claim to have a gender identity seem to be claiming to have a gendered soul that exists separately to their sexed body. Or they are claiming that their brain's distress at their sexed body proves that their internal sense of gender is reality, not actual reality. Either way this soul or feeling is an incredibly important thing that defines them and proves that - simultaneously - they must be treated just like everyone else whilst being lauded as truly special because of their decision to announce their claim that they have a gender identity.

The implications of this seem to be that this gendered soul or gender dysphoric brain should matter more to society and everyone in it than the physical and unchangeable reality of the person's sexed body. This is the main problem with the insane TRA position. Even if it were true that everyone had a gendered soul that existed separately from their sexed body, or that gender dysphoric people are happiest if they are constantly affirmed, this does not mean that the vast majority of ordinary people should have their rights [that is to be segregated by sex in places such as toilets and sports and single-sex advocacy / support groups for all sorts of almost univeraslly accepted good reasons] removed.

A gender identity is basically very similar to a religious belief. Both are entirely relevant to the individual concerned and to other believers, whilst being absolutely meaningless to others. Everyone else has every right to ignore or mock the belief and assert truth - so long as they don't move beyond ignoring or mocking and start abusing or harrassing.

Explaining one's political views in your own home, in repose to someone else inappropriately bring up politics in the course of their job servicing the needs of customers, is not abuse or harrassment.

ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus · 13/06/2022 11:42

YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/06/2022 09:18

Checking in for the promised coherent explanation of 'gender identity'. Double points if it does not involve stereotypes.

Hope you’ve got a comfy chair and a pile of snacks …..

Johnnysgirl · 13/06/2022 11:28

Not that that you’ve ever asked, but I can describe to you what gender identity is
Pmsl at the sheer irony of posting this, and then... failing to be able to describe it.

Datun · 13/06/2022 10:45

discovereads, you haven't described gender identity. You cant.

Not least because it means different things to different people. It shifts and changes. And some people have it, some people don't, some people have it and then don't. Some people never have it. Other people acquire it and then discard it. Some people are born with it, some people aren't. Some men claim it's because they want to be like the 'mean girls in Hollywood movies' , others like eg Jacob Tobia claim it's because they want to be sexually objectified. One memorable person on here said they wanted it, because without it they could not be 'vibrant'

There are countless articles and entire books written about gender identity by scientists, philosophers, journalists

Yeah, I'm not really surprised.

Datun · 13/06/2022 10:42

Not that that you’ve ever asked, but I can describe to you what gender identity is.

And yet...

DialSquare · 13/06/2022 09:53

I find it strange that Discovereads has managed to come to so many conclusions from KJK's video considering how ranting and incoherent it supposedly is.

Helleofabore · 13/06/2022 09:47

The threat is clear as day.

Yes. But the polarisation is clear. The threat is downplayed, but the alleged misgendering is dialed up to fire alarm level.

The usual tactics are very clearly in use on this thread.

Helleofabore · 13/06/2022 09:43

YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/06/2022 09:18

Checking in for the promised coherent explanation of 'gender identity'. Double points if it does not involve stereotypes.

Can we deduct points for circular reasoning?

But can we add a bonus point for the liberal use of ‘literally’? I find that quite entertaining.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 13/06/2022 09:29

I’ll take my time

So… he’s not planning to leave immediately? So… he’s planning to do something else before he leaves? What is he planning to do?

The threat is clear as day. What an absolute psycho. Him, and the people who’ve spent 22 pages arguing it wasn’t a threat.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 13/06/2022 09:24

YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/06/2022 09:18

Checking in for the promised coherent explanation of 'gender identity'. Double points if it does not involve stereotypes.

Random pointer to the origin in a 1968 book.

“It is a working term,” Robert Stoller said of his creation in 1968. “We need hardly insist on the holiness of the term “gender identity.”” Half a century later, gender identity had everywhere been pronounced holy, sanctified with legal sponsorship, draped in royal purple.

twitter.com/FrancisAaronUK/status/1415330964406996999

The book: Sex and Gender: The Development of Masculinity and Femininity

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B084WM99MQ?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/06/2022 09:18

Checking in for the promised coherent explanation of 'gender identity'. Double points if it does not involve stereotypes.

ZombieMumEB · 13/06/2022 09:15

There needs to be a proper investigation by waitrose.

An employee that is a delivery person, should under no circumstances try to bring their personal beliefs up when dealing with a customer. It's just so unprofessional.

Their behaviour with KJK has red flags all over it. There is just something so creepy and threatening by a male who refuses to leave immediately when asked by a female, and when he said he'd take his time - he was asserting his entitle male power.

He should have left immediately, to de-escalate the situation. I guess it was hard due to his over-inflated male ego?

Helleofabore · 13/06/2022 09:10

Are we finally going to get a coherent and stable definition of what ‘gender’ is, along with ‘gender identity’?

I am ready!

Terfydactyl · 13/06/2022 09:07

Sigh, normal not nor

Terfydactyl · 13/06/2022 09:07

Not that that you’ve ever asked, but I can describe to you what gender identity is
Well I did ask, I offered you any language too.
Please be a love and answer, coherently, non circular definition.
Weve been waiting a very long time for this answer.
We are all holding our breath that you finally can give us the holy grail of answers, we can then agree with you, all the angst will be over and life can return to nor.

No pressure tho.

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