Fionne Orlander has had genital surgery

Except we don't do lobotomy on the NHS anymore but we do do ECT despite the known risks.

Is it not more akin lobotomy than ECT - as that is the physical removal or alteration of part of the brain. So, in the case of genital surgeries such as this, it is the physical removal or alteration of the genitals.

No Tinsel. It's a mental health condition for which the treatment is drastic and only works in a proportion of cases.

This is like sympathising with someone who has had entrenched depression for decades and has decided to go for ECT.

For some, it works and they never look back. For others it doesn't work or worse, causes long-term damage.

It's possibly to sympathise with someone battling a condition who decides ultimately they want to try the surgery.

I also follow a lot of trans men/ detrans men on Twitter who are in a constant battle over whether to re-start testosterone again. I can have sympathy for them too.

See a couple of posts above, where I extend sympathy to Samphire over her health problems? Like that.

Sympathy for upheaval caused by elective surgery? I've missed those threads

It's an extension of sympathy towards a person. Much as I've extended sympathy towards many women on here before when they've had upheaval in their personal life.

I can understand men being terribly empathetic about the loss of the holy phallus, but women need to get a grip (so to speak again)

I don't remember any 'good luck recovering from your surgery' threads about any of the surgery the Kardashians have, or when twitter celebs have breast lifts.

It's all just cosmetic surgery nothing less, nothing more. Is it just that the cock is the most sacred part of anyone body?

Well we've got bugger all chance of trans widows perspective being considered by policy makers when it's not even considered on FWR.

On that I am with Helen Joyce. I don't care about the individual, really, can only bring myself to be passingly polite. But I do care about the principles underlying all of this. The legalities, the deceptions, the effects it is all having.

Or in this case, just feminists not wringing their hands over somebody's penis (so to speak).

I keep being brought up short by your posts @TinselAngel

Always another perspective that needs to be addressed by society and law makers alike.

Maybe all us trans widows should start a thread each time one of our exes has surgery?

I completely agree with you. Maybe better on a website/thread on operations/procedures carried out on male genitals.

Will we be getting an update on prostate checks on particular individuals next? Or, will we now all be sharing if the prostates of men in our lives have to be removed. Totally relevant to sex (the male sex) and better discussed in Health.

I wish Fionne very well. As for the crowdfunding, no one had to donate and there are many many sillier things to donate to.
i did see someone discussing a study result that showed surgery made trans people happier. When you looked into the data it actually showed that educated professionals earning a good wage were more likely to be happier after surgery, but not others. Presumably this reflects when it’s a considered mature decision. It seems
quite likely that Fionne will be happier after this and I don’t begrudge that for a minute.

Samphire, sorry to hear that. We know 17 year old girls are having this operation if they have a trans identity - absurd that grown women with lifelong health issues aren't listened to.

A friend of mine has had this surgery and shared pretty much everything pre and post in graphic detail on Facebook. It was traumatic enough to read - let alone what it must have been like to go through it.

Hopefully it will help both of them and neither will have regrets.

The problem @FemaleAndLearning is the inequity.

I have, and have always had, very large breasts. As a teen I tried to get reduction surgery but was refused - told I was lucky to have such assets by one GP.

I have a congenital hip issues and associated back problems, Large tits made everything worse.

As I got older my posture changed, back pain moved up my spine, my shoulders have curved. Boobs still very large and no GP has ever done anything other than commiserate and say no! Now, closing in on 60 years old, my posture, knees, hip, back, even my gait, is worsening. I can't exercise (other issues) and the only thing that would relieve the constant pain and pressure on my spine would be breast reductions surgery.

But no. Big tits and back pain is 'normal for women' apparently.

Effectively I have lived a life more painful than it needed to be because I am female!

Long ago, long before all this TWAW stuff took off, I remember thinking “nobody would put themselves through that unless they felt that was the only option”. I do still believe that, although I don’t believe that it literally makes them women and prior to 2015 or so, nor did anyone else. All the Eddie Izzards who stick on a bit of lipstick and talk about girl mode and then keep playing male roles aren’t dealing with what FO is dealing with.

This is very much how I feel.
The pp who mentioned feeling sad, yes I feel sad for Fiona too, sad that she has to go through this brutal surgery, sad there aren't better treatments for gender dysphoria, sad that TRAs have made the world such a difficult and divided place for all of us.

Fionne didn't rush into this as had been on the waiting list for 5 years according to the twitter discussion. I feel sad that transexuals feel they need this surgery to ease their dysphoria. It must be like constantly looking for the next fix which I guess is the facial feminisation surgery which is what the fund raiser is for. From what I've read Fionne knows he can never be female and is against males in female single sex spaces. Also against medical treatment of children. When I first started to read up on gender identity ideology I watched some of Fionne's you tube videos and found them very useful. I think we can forget in the them and us language that there are people with genuine gender dysphoria, who have very different needs and wants from transactivists.

If adults with a public profile voluntarily put their own incredibly personal information into the public domain on their own open Twitter account, then they’re doing that to proactively invite public comment on it. I don’t think it makes any ethical difference whether the public comment is made there or on here. We’ve got much stronger moderation and rules about what can be said on MN than Twitter.

I hope that everyone who is given these surgeries by the NHS is also invited to take part in long term follow-up research about how they get on afterwards, physically and emotionally.

It would be reassuring to know that doctors and psychologists are actually monitoring long term outcomes over the decades for the benefit of all concerned. That means monitoring not just for the individual patient’s care, but comparing treatment and outcomes across peers who have had the same thing, in a methodical way. Then publishing the outcomes as research findings. (Exactly as the Tavistock hasn’t been routinely doing for child patients over the years).
An adult treatment evidence base is also needed, not least because some adults aged over 18 will be very vulnerable or not well informed or may not have been considering it carefully for years.

It goes without saying that I wish everyone who has surgery for whatever reason, all the very best for their recovery.

I think most of us appreciate how debilitating gender dysphoria can be. Long ago, long before all this TWAW stuff took off, I remember thinking “nobody would put themselves through that unless they felt that was the only option”. I do still believe that, although I don’t believe that it literally makes them women and prior to 2015 or so, nor did anyone else. All the Eddie Izzards who stick on a bit of lipstick and talk about girl mode and then keep playing male roles aren’t dealing with what FO is dealing with.

I don’t think stopping anyone from doing this when they have thought it through is the right answer. Therapy is not a magic cure. I’ve used therapy to try to treat depression at various times and it does very very little for me, if anything. Those who see it as a holy grail are often those who have never tried it.

And how is fundraising being “no friend to women”? There are some women who have raised tens of thousands, often more, for legal cases and have them mysteriously gone silent. If FO wants to fundraise, let her.

Yep. I've slept on it and I'm still incredulous that there's a memorial thread here to somebody's penis.

First we can't say things. Now we can't feel things. Great.

I feel uncomfortable with the title of this post. I know there's a lot of people who are supportive of Fionne and wish them well but I'm not sure about the bluntness and invasiveness of this title.

Fionne has obviously been honest and open about this procedure but that's on their own Twitter. I would report it but I'm never reporting anything again after my name and email address was included in the last two reports I made because of the data breach.

Sending healing vibes and hope that Fionne finds peace with their body and can live a happy and fulfilling life.