I have a question about same sex attraction and trans rights in the context of gay men and transmen

Having said that I do have some limited sympathy with this younger generation.

I presume that many people are very straight or very gay, and many are completely ambiguous, equally open to gay and straight relationships. BUT, it doesn't seem to be that much of a stratch to think that many people are neither 100% gay or straight or 100% in the middle. There is some sense in people being more open to exploring gay or straight relationships despite their primary orientation being the opposite. There is nothing wrong with saying "I'm pretty much straight, but I am literally bi as I am somewhat same sex attracted. When I fancy women I tend to prefer those whose body and gender expression is relatively androgenous or masculine"

Ultimately I do have some sympathy with the current generations (claims of) increased sexual fluidity and openness... but ultimately I believe no-one has ever changed sex, everyone is gay straight or bi and there is nothing anyone can say to contradict that without denying reality and expressing deeply homophobic opinions a la Stonewall who are literally a misogynistic and homophobic hate group at this point.

Well I do have half a brain but I read an article recently on a sporting website about a transman who described himself as gay and wondered what he meant in the context of being trans. My husband was similarly perplexed and said it made his brain hurt.

www.energiseme.org/blog/lifting-more-than-weights-finding-a-lifeline-in-weightlifting/

Not entirely unrelated point - he makes (in my opinion) a very convincing man and presumably has had hormonal treatment. Whether he's had surgery I don't know, it wasn't mentioned.

Note: having read the article again, there was a bit at the bottom I missed last time where he mentioned his husband.

KathyMunro · Today 15:35

Homosexual = same SEX attracted.
Heterosexual = opposite sex attracted

So a man (male sex) and a transman (female sex) are heterosexual.
A transwoman (male sex) and a woman (female sex) are heterosexual.

It seems very very very very clear to me! (And to most adults with half a brain).

I mean the only way anything else makes sense is if you literally have got confused and think the words are hterogenderality and homogenderality, or if you are a massive homophobe who wishes to trans the gay away using trans status as a kind of conversion therapy.

Thank goodness you said it. I'd read that sentence three times assuming I'd missed some nuance, but no. They re really trying to erase homosexual attraction, aren't they?

Homosexual = same SEX attracted.
Heterosexual = opposite sex attracted

So a man (male sex) and a transman (female sex) are heterosexual.
A transwoman (male sex) and a woman (female sex) are heterosexual.

It seems very very very very clear to me! (And to most adults with half a brain).

I mean gay men, not bi, in a relationship with another ( trans) man. And a lesbian, not bi, in a relationship with another ( trans) woman.but I think you probably already knew that

Well no, as in your world 'gay' is two straight couples. This is what we mean. If gay now means straight...then what...the...fuck?

It won't be addressed because it affects men.

Gay men are still men and hence their rights trump those of women.

They won't have to stand aside and allow their sports to be decimated, they won't be expected to hold their tongues about concerns re safe spaces, the word man will not be replaced or demonised & nobody will question them re who they will date.

It's just another step towards Gillead.

‘What do you mean 'gay'.’

I mean gay men, not bi, in a relationship with another ( trans) man. And a lesbian, not bi, in a relationship with another ( trans) woman.but I think you probably already knew that.

I also know a lesbian couple where one wife transitioned to male and they stayed together although the woman does say she finds it difficult sometimes from the POV of outsiders thinking that they are a straight couple when she herself still identifies as a lesbian.and feels no mess gay for her partners transition.
She still loves her DH regardless of the transition from woman to trans man and they have kids together.

The Snopes article says that 4chan is popular with members of the neo-nazi movement, It doesn't say all 4chan members are Nazis.

Like lots of parents, I'm having plenty of lively discussions with teen daughter at the moment about the question of whether transwomen are women etc and the complexities of that.
Not complicated at all.
Transwomen are not women.

I think it's becoming more of a question with gay men. IMO it's been a later thing because of the demographics. Most of the male "lesbians" are older, whereas the "gay" transmen are fairly young. I also suspect, though I don't know, that among transmen many of the older ones were attracted to women, but that in the younger group that is significantly less likely to be the case. So these younger people are now just getting seriously into the dating scene.

The other element of that is most retain female patterns of sexual activity which are not the same as male patterns, and especially not the same as gay male patterns. So they are just not likely in large numbers to be going in for things like bathhouse culture.

All that being said, I don't think it's nearly as simple as a gay man would never be attracted to a transman unless he was actually bi-sexual, I think those axes aren't always the elements that end up dominating. If anyone watched that video with Buck Angel on the other thread, the people who watch that transman porn are not straight men or women - they are gay men. It's interesting to see what he reports gay men saying to him about being attracted to transmen. That's not surprising to me, I think sexuality is more complicated than people are often willing to admit, and also the way the brain "reads" a person's sex is pretty primitive and doesn't really take account of the possibility of medical interventions. Also, young males and young females can often look quite similar and some gay men like that androgenous quality. Then too of course sometimes the weirdness itself is actually what is attractive to people totally apart from anything else.

I think that's all somewhat less likely to be the case with transwomen, because women's sexuality is different, and because transwomen don't typically read as women. As for the attraction to androgynous younger adults, I think that's also less common among women compared to men, except maybe for teen women.

Basically I think it's somewhat more likely gay men might be attracted to transmen than lesbians would be attracted to transwomen. So you might not get quite the same overwhelmingly negative response from the male part of the gay community.

you'll see how any sort of resistance is met with spurious claims of "Nazi".

Yes this. I am so so so tired of the prostituting of that word, which just lazily and childishly uses the murder of millions to score personal points whilst clearly not having the faintest idea of what it means.

Until there are eagle badges, goose stepping armies and an invasion of Poland, ghettos, people on cattle trucks with bloody extermination centres being built, and whole towns of people being burned alive and shot into ditches by a government owned troops, no , it is not 'like the Nazis' ffs.

I'm sure a lot of people on here would like to deny that men are not being pressurised into relationships with trans people, but I'm seeing a trend of it happening (some of the links people have posted here point to such).

But the one thing I think we can guarantee is that no one practices what they preach. I'm sure the head of SW would refuse to go out with a man self identifying as a woman, and the gay men that say other men should sleep with trans men wouldn't themselves.

I read an article by a gay man that said that there should be shows about gay men dating trans men, when I asked whether he would consider it himself the comments were deleted.

Didn't the 'superstraight' guy's mum get death threats too?

And they had to go on an all out social media hideout?

I am a lesbian. I love using that word. I've even lived on Lesvos from where we get our name. I am a woman who loves women. That's still an actual living breathing reality. I'm proud to be who and what I am. Transactivists can fuck off to fucking hell if they will not respect my reality.

Think about your own sexual orientation. I assume you are straight? If so would you be sexually attracted to someone who was your own sex but presented as the opposite sex? Sexual attraction is visceral, not cerebral. I am a woman who is sexually attracted to women. You know, actual biological women with female sex organs who move smell and feel like women. Anyone expecting me to defend justify or overcome my feelings is homophobic. Stonewall is homophobic.

4chan were responsible for making it go viral

4 chan was one of the places it went viral. It certainly took off on twitter.

I don't be really see why on the fact that some bad people use social media is an argument that s particular idea is invalid.

Snopes is owned by Facebook. Please don't use it to 'fact check'.

It's a very slippery "fact check".

Yes, It did go viral on 4chan, I'm sure. It went viral everywhere, including Reddit and Mumsnet.

Then you have the claim it's "popular with members of the neo-Nazi movement". Probably not as popular as Reddit is, or Twitter...

And then that gets stretched to "responsible" by the poster, something Snopes couldn't bring themselves to say.

Anyway, back to the subject - you'll see how any sort of resistance is met with spurious claims of "Nazi". Unsurprising some feel unable to push back against that while "being kind".

Snopes is owned by Facebook. Please don't use it to 'fact check'.

4chan were responsible for making it go viral

www.snopes.com/fact-check/super-straight-nazis-4chan/

What's True
The "Super Straight" trend originated on TikTok through a user named Kyleroyce, and then went viral on 4chan, a forum popular with members of the neo-Nazi movement.
^^
What's False
It is false to claim that "Super Straight" originated on 4chan, but the phrase and hashtag did go viral there.
^^

So are journalists covering this stuff just avoiding the elephant in the room because they are scared of repercussions?

That's basically it. If you're a female trying to point this out, you will get the full force of the TRAs, and if you're male, what's the point in stirring the pot where you're nice and comfortable and left to do what you like? (With some notable exceptions)

I do though get the distinct impression from some posters that it is considered very stupid to ask anything about this

It's not that- as you may or may not know, hundreds of troll threads start with similar OPs, and then descend into bunfights, sock puppetting for screenshots etc. Different posters have different levels of willingness to take such posts at face value, depending on how cynical they are I'm cynical (generally) but willing to engage in good faith unless I'm given a reason not to!