I have a question about same sex attraction and trans rights in the context of gay men and transmen

She sees it as being unkind and assuming the worst of an entire group of people. It's a v widespread view among her and her contemporaries.

I realise this is not part of your question about homosexual men and trans men but I just am interested to know if by any chance you asked her whether not allowing ordinary men into a woman’s prison, changing room etc would not also mean seeing the worst in an entire group?

I think homophobes/lesbophobes have found a new conduit through the transgender 'cause'.

'Transing away the gay' was it appears, using the Tavistock & Portman Trust official figures from just 1st January-31st December 2012 (a decade ago) already firmly-established, with nearly 70% of females being referred being same-sex attracted, and nearly 45% of males being same-sex attracted. This was before the explosion in referrals inside the last 5 years.

And there are some significant supporters of 'trans away the gay' to-be-found. Well, easy enough to find; just look for anyone on Twitter who reckons the LGB Alliance is a 'hate group' and you've, in all likelihood, uncovered a homophobe/lesbophobe. That's because opposing 'transing away the gay' is a core plank of the LGBA's activities, typified by its short film, Gay Teens Aren't Sick!

Of course there are gay men and lesbians who reckon that the LGBA is a hate group; Owen Jones and The Scottish Actor come-to-mind immediately. These might be best thought of as collaborators in the campaign to 'trans away the gay', but it is for them to explain why they oppose the LGBA's efforts to oppose the medicalisation of LGB teens. The LGBA is pretty clear in its message;

'We know that the majority of children and young people prescribed Puberty Blockers are lesbian, gay or bi-sexual. This is an attack on young LGB people and we will not stay silent'

A New Homophobia is stalking the land, and it is way more vicious that anything even the 1950s could produce in the US or UK. Medicalising LGB teens is about as low as Western society can descend-to, yet it has huge support from the New Homophobes who would otherwise describe themselves as 'progressive'. Add on the hate and the often-stated desires to eliminate gay men and lesbians as a group expressed by TRA's/leftists online and at events like Pride, and you have a toxic brew that is just getting worse.

Crumbs, I just had a look at that website. I’m starting to think that I grew up in a gentler age than young people now (I’m firmly middle aged).

Quite.

There are many TM I find very attractive - but wholly respect that they are unlikely to be interested in a lesbian, and that's fine. Other people's boundaries, absolutely to be respected.

TW and NB male people - I can certainly appreciate very attractive male people of all gender identities, attractive meaning personality as much as appearance, and have met some very attractive androgynous appearing people, but I can't help being sexually attracted to biological sex, and outer appearance and personality isn't all that matters. Otherwise I'd be bi, not lesbian. Someone feeling a need to 'fix' me for being faulty in this has a problem.

I get that someone could be superficially attracted to an unusually convincing trans person.

But a woman who is straight and finds a trans man attractive, and then goes on to have sex after discovering she is a trans man (ie woman) not a man is -

(1) Bisexual. By definition.

and

(2) Maybe, "at best", "basically straight" but with slight bisexual tendency that is acted on occasionally with masculine women.

Luckily, none of those screen shots actually said that then so all is good.

You seem very worried about men.

And by the way, Men or women who sleep with people of their own sex are not heterosexual.

Speaking as a lesbian, I'm attracted to the innate femaleness of biological females, smell, shapes, sex organs, energy, everything. That cannot be imitated. My senses cannot be fooled.

You only have to read the screenshots in the page linked above and the many, many addressed to homosexual females to get this.

There is absolute rage that homosexual people won't wholly change what homosexual means and in fact stop being homosexual and use their bodies to validate someone's identity.

The absolute lack of respect, care or even basic social reciprocation with the people with the bodies desired to provide a sexual experience is overwhelming. Homosexual people trying to explain 'but I don't want to' and 'that doesn't work for me' in those screenshots are just met with rage and either 'I don't care, do what I say right now' or threats.

And then note the open comments about 'homophobia should be normalised' (to punish people who won't stop being homosexual and do what I tell them.)

It's deeply disturbing stuff. The behaviour is absolutely unacceptable, and the relationships board would tell you in words of one syllable, someone who treats others like this and views others as so inhuman is not relationship material. Their sex and gender is irrelevant, the behaviour and lack of social and emotional reciprocation is the issue.

If homosexual people and female people and safeguarding people yada yada saying 'no,this does not work for me/them/her' is 'transphobia' then the only logical conclusion to be drawn is that transphobia really does mean nothing more than thwarting someone in their desire to do exactly what they want, including by expecting them to consider the impact of their actions on others. That isn't any kind of 'phobia' these are natural consequences of behaving very inappropriately towards others.

As I've mentioned to my toddlers before now: if you're unkind to people, they will not want to play with you, and no, I am not going to make them. It's getting down to being this fundamental.

I get what you are saying. But the reality is that there will continue to be males who are only attracted to males and females who are only attracted to females however much language is policed or appropriated. Just like there will continue to be female humans, whether or not we are allowed to use the word woman.

There is also nothing new in physical reality and commonly used language not matching up. I recall reading about how important it was to direct certain health advice to "men who sleep with men" as opposed to "gay and bisexual men". This is because there was an apparently significant number of men who did not call themselves gay or bi (for various reasons, I guess related to culture, prejudice or being in a het relationship) who nonetheless slept with men.

Calling gay men transphobic for not sleeping with females doesn't even scratch the surface of the violent rape and death threats directed at lesbians that won't sleep with men. If you want shocking, that's where to aim to be honest.

I am just not sure if this is true. Words like hetero-homo-bi-sexual have a meaning of course, but reality isn't determined by the words, the words are an attempt to describe the reality.

The human brain is built to see certain things to indicate a person is a possible sexual partner, a lot based on secondary sexual characteristics. It's primitive and that part of the brain has a very limited capacity to deal with the fact that it is possible, through the use ot technology, to make some people convincingly appear as the other sex. If an individual is convincing in their appearence as the other sex, for some people they will respond sexually as if that is the case. This seems to be the case for some transmen, who really don't look all that different than the members of a boy-band, which is an appealing demographic to some.

Most of the gay men ive ever known are really into cock, funnily enough.

Yes, I've discussed this with a couple of my gay male friends, one of whom has been burned in the whole TRA ideology (he faced a harmful vexatious complaint which was so so difficult for him). One of them said pretty much what you've written here @Branleuse "I'm into cock." Well, quite, of course he is, being homosexual & all that.

Seeing that web page makes me feel as physically ill as reading T*isaslur does.

Less blood, gore, rape and death threats involved, but really nasty stuff.

I think there is a tendency to think that gay men can simply say 'no' to having sex with the opposite sex and that'll be the end of it.

Unfortunately the transgender crowd, or at least a sizable number of them, won't accept 'no' as an answer

Woke Homophobia: Anti-Gay Hatred & Boxer Ceiling Abuse from Trans Activists & Gender-Identity Ideologues collects screenshots of homophobic online abuse from transactivists and 'gender-identity ideologues' (I think that is supposed to mean 'leftists')

And it's obvious that the gay community is seeing some pretty vitriolic homophobia from the transgender activists. Whether that is increasing in regularity and intensity isn't clear from just this web site alone, but it must be driving-up membership of LGB Alliance.

As for being perplexed, I didn't know that was a thing among fake posters. But it is the right word for how I'm currently feeling about it. To say I'm new to this wasn't totally accurate on reflection because I've been thinking about all the GC stuff since DD1 (who, I can assure you, is very real) started secondary but I am new to this board and therefore not up to speed with the whole landscape. And the more I read, watch, hear about all this, and pick up on more inconsistencies like the stuff I raised in my OP, the more I think it's totally bonkers. And yet DD1 has totally bought into it and there's a very powerful trans orthodoxy among her circle of friends (and even among the teaching staff at her school).

You sound like me a few years ago :-)

I'm trying to think what's actually changed since then. I suppose back then I thought if I asked enough TRA types, very kindly and genuinely, the right questions, they'd answer them in a way that'd make me understand.

Things like 'so when you say X is a woman, what exactly do you mean a woman is?' 'When you say 'trans' is when your sex doesn't match your gender, what does 'gender' mean, and which ones match which sexes if they're entirely separate'?

I've had about 2 half-hearted attempts at answers and everyone else just ignores, pretends not to understand or, basically, lies. Some are 'transsexuals' who agree that male/female is a physical thing and that is what trans people are aiming to change, but mostly it's 'gender is an identity, nothing to do with sex, but your sex is what your gender is'.

Hope you stick around, OP. Unfortunately the default answer to most sensible questions is 'because the misogyny is worse than you ever even thought'.

That is just not true though is it. By definition this trans man has only ever dated opposite-SEX attracted or biSEXual men, because a trans man's sex is female.

It is literally impossible for a gay man to want to have sex with a trans man, in the same way as it is literally impossible for an overweight person to be underwieght or a left handed person to be right handed.

here it is:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Mr Menno is normally a gentle, funny man (see his other You Tube videos) but on this subject he's really angry. He's supported women and has attended, spoken and sung at various rallies and events. He's one of the gay men who saw what was happening and stepped up early on.

Here's the link to the Break it Down for Me thread while will bring you up to speed.