Is it OK to be undecided about certain things?

So just going back to this - you are saying that the 'social' meaning of the word 'woman' is basically someone who may or may not be female, but looks as though they are?

I can understand this. So 'woman' means a female person or someone who appears to be one.

But this completely relies on appearance. It's at odds with the view that gender is an innate thing, with nothing to do with bodies, and I think comes down to visual judgment which is not necessarily kind and inclusive.

It's similar referring to non-Muslims as 'q**s', in my view. (Which has come to have another derogatory meaning, so I'll not post the word.) Using the term (with arguably derogatory connotations/undertones) of one belief system to label those who don't subscribe to that belief system.

In fact, the use of 'cis' for people who don't subscribe to gender ideology is very close to your example of heterosexuals calling themselves 'normal sexuals' or whatever the term was you used.

No, you're referring to a group (comprising half of all human beings) that already had a name - 'women'. The fact that a small but very loud group of people has recently and unilaterally decided to give us a different name does not mean that we accept it and does not mean that people outside of that small, loud group should agree to use it to refer to us. That small,loud group is very welcome to make up a new name for themselves. 'Women' is already taken.

using it to refer collectively to women who are not trans.

Just don't. You've been asked not to, it's rude.

And to my mind, having been told that many here don't want to be referred to as cis, having checked and found that the word is in the use with caution list, the very fact that you are still defending, explaining, belabouring us with your reasons for continuing to use it, you are not really showing yourself as a poster ready to listen, to exchange ideas and information.

So thanks, but no thanks!

And to my mind if you refer to 'cis women' you're talking exclusively about a group of women with a political affiliation who have chosen that label.

No shared meaning.

I do think there’s an important difference between me specifically referring to an individual person as cis gender if they find the term offensive (and I’ve said I won’t do that) - I don’t call my partner cis gender for this reason - and me using it to refer collectively to women who are not trans. It’s like if I wanted to make an observation about bisexual people (eg ‘bisexual people face prejudice from both gay and straight people’) - I use that term knowing that there are people I’m talking about (basically people who are neither gay nor straight, nor asexual) who don’t identify as bisexual - they might say they are pansexual, or they don’t subscribe to sexuality categories at all. If a person told me they didn’t identify as bisexual I wouldn’t insist on telling them they are in fact bisexual. But that doesn’t mean they don’t in a general sense fall with the category of people I was talking about in my original observation.

I mean, I'm perfectly happy to call someone 'cis' if they wish to use that term. I merely expect the same respect in return.

As a lesbian btw, if someone wants to rant at me about being sexually deviant then I'm going to think they're a bit of a twit and discover an urgent need to go wash my goldfish's hair, but no, I don't need to control their language.

I think your problem is that you are not recognising the nature of gender - it's not something experienced by all people in the same way so it's not trans or not trans.

That's like saying people are either British or German - a false binary , and sone people have no nationality

So who gets the final decision on how women get to define themselves? Is someone going to check the term and give approval or refusal?

Ah I see.

So some people get to choose their own words but other people don't? And their feelings about their identity and language don't matter?

No thank you. Either it's a value applied equally or it isn't. Pick one. Again, I don't mind which. I am not going to fall apart with you calling me words I find offensive personally, but will expect equal tolerance to my using the words I prefer instead of those others would prefer. I don't engage in social contracts with anyone (or group) who demand respect from me but gives none reciprocally in return. It's not a healthy or appropriate thing.

Well
Yes and if they decided to call themselves gay that would also be problematic

The point remains is that if someone does not see themselves as cis gendered then it is wrong to call them that

I don’t think it’s that simple. Gay people should clearly have the primary say in what they’re called, but they also have a stake in what people who are not gay are called - what if a heterosexual person decided they didn’t like that term and felt the best way to refer to their sexuality was ‘sexually normal’ or ‘non-deviant’? It’s their label, so presumably you would say it’s up to them - but it also has implications for how gay people are regarded.

At a guess, I would say it's a very, very small minority of women who identify as 'cis'. So using the term as a blanket descriptor is going against all principles of respecting people's identity and ability to self identify.

I certainly will not refer directly to any of you who object to the term ‘cis gender’ using that term. But I don’t think it’s been banned on MN - as far as I recall the guidelines say it must not be used in an offensive way, not that it can’t be used at all, and they will make judgements on a case by case basis.

The main way in which my views align with GC views is that I believe gender is socially constructed and can be very limiting and damaging. I don’t believe individuals have a gendered ‘soul’ or that anyone is born in the wrong body (though I believe people can have a very powerful and real feeling of having been born in the wrong body). I think we should all (particularly in dealings with children) consciously try to resist the conscious or unconscious tendencies most of us have to treat people differently based on their sex/gender - eg make sure not to praise girls for being pretty or well behaved more than being brave, strong or clever (and similarly make sure not to deter boys from expressing emotion or showing vulnerability).

I do discuss these things fairly regularly with other people. The other day I was talking to a colleague in the pub about a talk he’d attended on trans inclusion, given by a trans person. He was expressing surprise at having found out that our gender is formed/influenced by hormones in the womb. I said I suspected any evidence to that effect was probably highly contested - while I have read about some studies suggesting that exposure to hormones in the womb can affect sexuality and gender identity, it is certainly not proven or established.

Yeah I don't care if Petrie calls herself cis. That's her choice. But realise that there are many women like me who find it represents everything about stereotypes associated with women that we have been fighting against our whole lives. I will not accept a label to describe me that I regard as insulting and dismissive. So probably best not to label all women as "cis" because they are not male.

And Grace is fully entitled to decide what words Grace chooses to use for herself.

As is everyone else.

Either we all get to use the words we choose and think are most appropriate for others and all others can just deal with that because it's the word we chose, or we agree that this is rude, coercive and dismissive of someone's identity and choices and we respect which words they do and do not use. Pick either one. I don't mind which.

There are plenty of people who will refer to themselves as cis gender without conforming to gender stereotypes. Have you come across Grace Petrie? She is a butch lesbian who (last time I saw her express a view) regards herself as cis gender, simply because she is not trans. She also sometimes get challenged using women’s toilets because people mistake her for a man.

I completely agree with this - to dismiss the association of particular traits or tendencies with one sex/gender more than another as merely stereotypes (whether or not the perceived association reflects a real world statistical differences in how people behave) is to simplistically trivialise very real and important aspects of many people’s identity and sense of self.

The term has been around for quite a long time, and I suspect it might be difficult at this point to replace it with something else, but you never know!

The term 'woman' has become 'uterus haver' fairly swiftly. So I think we can handle it. I'll check with the Board and get back to you.

Cis doesn't mean not trans though

It means identifying as having a gender in alignment with expectations for your sex

So you actually have transgender people , cis gender people and people who reject all gender

These later actually are often like transgender people in that they feel that gender assumptions do not fit them but they handle that in a different way / rather than describe themselves as transgender , rather than see anything wrong in themselves , they instead refuse to be bound to any gender and push for gender norms to be dismantled

So cis is not not trans
To people with no gender it's as insulting as calling a transwoman a man for example

'Cis' is a political label and I and many other women do not agree with that political label, accept the identity it involves, and find it offensive. Please don't use it to coercively label me. I have nothing against those who choose to use that identity for themselves, but it's not a group that includes me.

Yes, it is necessary sometimes to be very verbal and jump language through hoops to accommodate everyone's choices and preferences around gender identity, goodness knows we've had to get good at this on MN to avoid causing offense and being deleted due to it, but this has to apply to all equally if it's going to work.

"C*s" meaning "on this side".... the side that happily agrees to conforming to all the assumptions, stereotypes and performances of femininity that have been demanded of women since time immemorial?? No thanks.