Helen Joyce/Helen Staniland "Trans Elimination" video

I'm genuinely sorry that you and your child are in this situation.

I'm sure you've already done a lot of research but I would seriously urge both you and your child to make sure you understand the long term implications of puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and elective surgery.

I can't help but feel that this issue is a sign that society has actually gone backwards in terms of how we see men and women.

If your child believes they identify as the opposite sex, what do they think that means?

What do they believe a boy is and what do they believe a girl is?

Because the way I see it, there are only two possibilities.

Either you believe a boy is a child of the male sex, i.e. born with a penis, and a girl is a child of the female sex. Or you believe that "boy" and "girl" are both identities.

If your child believes the former, do they understand that no matter what name and pronouns they use, no matter what they wear, and no matter what superficial changes they make to their body, they can never ever change sex? All medical transition will do is turn them into a lifelong medical patient who will be dependent on drugs and doctors for the rest of their life. It will drastically reduce the number of people willing to consider them as a romantic or sexual partner, and it will in all likelihood mean they can never have children of their own. Will doing all these things really make them happier and healthier than trying to learn to live with the body they have?

If your child believes the latter, what do they believe the features of the identities "boy" and "girl" are? Boys like blue and girls like pink? Boys like football and girls like shopping? These are incredibly sexist things to believe. And completely false, because there are many, many people who do not conform to gendered stereotypes typically associated with their own sex. Why can't they just be themselves without seeking to make serious and irreversible changes to their body which have a high rate of complications?

I'm not trying to lecture you and I'm sure you've had many sleepless nights thinking about all of these things yourself.

But I do think the old "I'd rather have a living daughter than a dead son" trope is hugely worrying. I'm sure some trans identifying children do have suicidal thoughts. What is less clear is whether those feelings actually go away after transition. And there is plenty of evidence to suggest that children are advised on forums such as Reddit and other online trans communities to say they are feeling suicidal in order to frighten their loved ones into affirming their gender identities.

As parents we can only do what we think is right at the time. I wish you and your child all the best.

If your child has found peace by socially transitioning, that is presumably by changing name and clothing then why would they need any medical interventions?

Yes, this means that they might just be gender nonconforming if it's mainly about stereotypes of presentation and behaviour. 'Being trans' is nothing to do with those stereotypes (at least that's what we are continually being told).

Heads up as these threads may have attracted a lot of reporting yesterday Mumsnet data breach www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4564197-mumsnet-data-breach-1

If your child has found peace by socially transitioning, that is presumably by changing name and clothing then why would they need any medical interventions?

The problem is the people that have told them they can change sex, not the people who state that taking very strong drugs for the rest of their life will give them lifelong medical problems.

And this hyperbole that Owen Jones et al set out to enrage means that no therapist is able to actually speak to them and support them otherwise they may lose their jobs.

That's terrifying.

Do the Helens just hate trans kids, or is there a reason they're saying what they're saying?

Exactly. There's no doubt there is a certain cohort who desperately want people to think it's the former, but, the obvious misrepresentation and all the 'genocide' nonsense, etc, would get people quietly backing away from that.

How is this "terrifying"?

Of course it's terrifying.

If you've put your child on a path to, well, anything, someone saying it's harmful and unnecessary is terrifying. There's a few possibilities:

1. They're right, and you're harming your child.
2. They're wrong, but in good faith, which would mean that the evidence isn't clear, and it's not certain that you're doing the right thing.
3. They're wrong, and in bad faith, despite the totally strong evidence what you're doing is right. In which case why are they lying? What's their agenda? And they have whole groups behind them spreading these lies about your child!

Every possibility there is terrifying, in the position of a parent who has put their child on a path. And number 3 is the explanation that will be clung to for as long as possible, as the one that keeps you in the not-quite-so-terrifying world where you're doing the right thing.

The psychology here works for putting kids on a path to "transition", but it would work in many other situations where a parent has committed their child to something.

The only non-terrifying position is utter faith in what you've done and not entertaining any doubts, which means not listening to non-believers at all. "Safe spaces".

That's the psychological grip this religion has on its followers. Their children.

But coming here to say you're "terrified" is a start. It's the first step to working through it to determine the truth. Do the Helens just hate trans kids, or is there a reason they're saying what they're saying?

I'm sorry for your worry. A suicidal child must be devastating. Can I ask how old they are?

The reason is that puberty blockers are given at the onset of puberty, so not necessarily years away. And almost all children on blockers go on to cross sex hormones. Which have lifelong, serious consequences. This isn't about one individual, it's about the wholesale acceptance of a non evidence based ideology.

It is this which the Helens (and women here) want to address. How children are getting to this stage and why. Suicidal children, desperate to be the opposite sex, is something which needs to be urgently examined.

Can I ask if you know the reasons your child has gender dysphoria? Have they been able to explain it to you? The answers to those questions is what the NHS needs to be looking at.

I do hope you've getting the support you need.

I'm glad your DC has found some relief from gender dysphoria by socially presenting in a different way.

I think it's a pity we can't accept radically gender non-conforming people - Im assuming your child is biologically male - what's wrong with ultra-feminine men?

What you refer to as "this ideology" is actually a lot of rational, medically & scientifically informed people wanting to limit the potential long-term harm that can be inflicted by untested, experimental drugs. Artificial hormones are very strong chemicals.

They want your DC to try to align their body & their mind through talking therapies and "watchful waiting" before resorting to powerful & experimental medical & surgical interventoins. Extreme dysphoria is a mental imbalance between mind & body (like anorexia).

How is this "terrifying"? Have you watched the discussion? Both Helens are extremely compassionate & deeply worried about the long term consequences of what is, in part, a social contagion.

Helen is worried about your daughter. I'm sorry you believe that changing her body will fix her mind.

As a mum of a trans daughter it's really upsetting. My child almost killed herself but has now found peace by socially transitioning (the medical stuff will take years). The idea that people are out there spouting this ideology is just frankly terrifying. I thought I could stop worrying for her life when she came out, but now I worry even more.

Well, it's a cut-out-and-keep post for me. And one I need to remember for the next inevitable complaint from my students that I"m transphobic when I teach women's history. THey're very hot on decolonising the curriculum, so the colonial paralllel is perfect ...

@GoodThinkingMax , thank you so much. Made my day.

Unless I misunderstood her, she said it at about 22 minutes in? m.youtube.com/watch?v=8_u1MQFjxvI

fascinating to learn that Helen Joyce was doing the Tribunal Tweets at Allison's tribunal

I don't think HJ said that but rather that she and some others at sex-matters.org were transcribing where they could to create a patchwork and partial record. I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

I think we're seeing that in this instance @nepeta (BTW, I think you posted on another thread about colonisation as a metaphor - brilliant post!)

I watched the convo around the time it came out, and I didn't see what Helen Joyce said as problematic in the context of the whole discussion. But I did multi-task and of course I wasn't focusing on trying to find statements which could be misconstrued, so I will now watch it again.

As an aside, I have done lots of online warfare against various types of MRAs and misogynists in the past, and those were very frightening experiences in a few cases.

I am beginning to believe that many of the most vocal TRAs online are, in fact, more threatening, and it's not just in a few cases. There's something odd about many of them. Perhaps narcissistic rage? When no amount of apologies will reduce the attacks and the rage that would be one possible explanation.

Off topic, but fascinating to learn that Helen Joyce was doing the Tribunal Tweets at Allison's tribunal when Kirren Medcalf (sp?) was giving evidence and during the revelations about the various support personnel/animals. I paraphrase slightly I think (but not by much): "My typing was impeded by my jaw getting in the way of my typing hands".

THanks @SamphirethePogoingStickerist I'll have to think whether I can be arsed ...

Unlike our unseen monitors, I actually watched the whole of the discussion between the 2 Helens.

If you report the deleted post and ask you should get an explanation. I have done that a couple of times. It helps get your head round the meaning of 'not in the spirit' etc.

Goodness, I’ve had a post deleted. I can’t for the life of me think why??? If anyone saw it and can explain, I’d appreciate a DM (probably not safe to say why on this thread!)

I didn’t misgender anyone, just talked bout East German female athletes and testosterone…

Every single person knows by now that it doesn't really matter what you say. It will either be misinterpreted or edited and seized upon to find any old bollocks offence.

Look at the absolute nonsense that J. K. Rowling had about ignoring porn directed at children - the accusations were coming from the very men who were sending her the dick pics! Or all the crazy that Kellie Jay gets. Every single word pounced on and stuck in the mangle.

So why bother to even try. Just get on and say what it is you want to say.

Yep. So tired of people trying to appease TRAs. Nothing is ever going to be enough, so it's better not to start. I think the Helens have dealt with this insane situation quite well.

So why bother to even try. Just get on and say what it is you want to say. Let's get that Overton window moved along.

Along with just letting the people doing the distortion wear out their goodwill.

There's a limit to how often people will be prepared to listen to them if they keep being so liberal with the misrepresentation.

I was onboard with the GC side fairly rapidly because it was apparent when I looked how full of shit the other side was with repeated failure to address actual points and repeated misrepresentation of the GC side's arguments. I was actively looking for that on both sides - and only one side clearly failed the test - but others may well not be and take longer to spot the patterns.

The more they misrepresent, the more people will notice them doing it, and the more support they lose. So we can keep baiting them into it, and they can just keep going. Fine by me.

They're going to be spouting nonsense either way, but being clearly immediately counter-factual by misrepresenting something someone has just said undermines their credibility more obviously and clearly than the usual unfounded claims about research and evidence bases.

Yeah, I don't think saying "medically transitioned" would have helped either.

I think that the tide of public opinion is starting to turn, and it's really unfortunate that she said something which can quite easily be twisted into "Helen Joyce wants to eliminate trans people".

She could quite easily have stuck to, for example, talking about the lifelong medical issues faced by people who have taken hormones or had surgery, and mentioned the regrets of detransitioners, without saying we need to reduce their numbers (which is implicit in that anyway).

Wow some great talking points in there.
The thing that really got me thinking was the section when they were talking about the potential for homophobia in parents that were keen to promote the idea that their kid was transgender rather than dealing with the fact that they could be gay.
Not going to happen in all cases, or even a majority but I would bet that it's not a statistical anomaly either.