Helen Joyce/Helen Staniland "Trans Elimination" video

If males and females are not finding trans people sexually attractive now, it is not transphobia, it is human sexual attraction towards a particular sexed body type. And it won’t change in the future.

I've been wondering, too, about issues such as authenticity and stability and baggage. I know that after a first few forays into dating and relationships (when I dated, for example, someone who was bi-polar for a roller coaster year or two) that I didn't want someone who'd bring loads of drama or neediness or dependency into my life. That I wanted someone who was straightforward and uncomplicated. No games, no ulterior motives, no narcissism, no abusive or crazily chaotic backgrounds.

But how else are they going to get there?

I know! Poor little things, it’s such a dilemma for them, isn’t it?

Also the way to improve their "prospects for dating and finding a partner if that's what they want" is by tackling transphobia.

If someone thinks that it is transphobia that so dramatically reduces the dating pool for trans people, they probably should consider other people’s sexual boundaries a bit more. Why should any person be pressured to date another person who presents as the opposite sex?

To some people who are heavily invested because it is their child who is trans, it obviously would be a ‘phobic’ response. But it really is as simple as posters say. Most people are sexually attracted to one sex. Finding out your date has female developed breasts and a penis will only suit a very small amount of people.

Finding out your prospective sexual partner has a vagina constructed from a penis or from other body parts and is in no way the muscled, self lubricating female vagina you are expecting is going to cause a significant number of males to reject that person as a sexual partner.

The same with a female with a phalloplasty.

Any person telling others it is transphobic to reject a sexual partner who they don’t want to have sex with for any reason is abhorrent.

And if someone is telling a vulnerable child or teenager that it is transphobia that will be reducing their dating pool is creating major problems for that child or teen.

If anyone is telling a child or a teen that their bodies will be ‘just like the opposite sex’ needs to look at how theIr own behaviour contributes to the future distress of that child or teen.

If males and females are not finding trans people sexually attractive now, it is not transphobia, it is human sexual attraction towards a particular sexed body type. And it won’t change in the future.

That is not transphobic. And to say it is, seems rather all too coercive to me.

*Also the way to improve their "prospects for dating and finding a partner if that's what they want" is by tackling transphobia.

If trans people weren't treated as modern day lepers (as so many Mumsnet posters clearly believe they should be) they would find it easier to date.*

Sorry but this is nonsense.

The major problem that trans people face when dating is that (assuming they haven't had surgery) their external presentation doesn't match their biological sex.

Most people are exclusively attracted to one sex. Heterosexual women want to date men who look like men and have penises, not men who look like men but have vaginas or women who look like women but have penises.

Most trans women are heterosexual males who want to date lesbians. Lesbians don't do penises.

And even if the person has had surgery, what they have is at best a Frankenstein-ish approximation of what the opposite sex actually has. It doesn't work in the same way for sexual purposes, and quite obviously it doesn't work at all for reproductive purposes (and most people do want kids).

No amount of "tackling transphobia" is going to resolve this problem, and if your teenager is contemplating transitioning, they need to understand that even if five years from now we live in a magical rainbow striped world where everyone is fully accepting of trans people and everyone uses their pronouns and welcomes them into whatever toilets and sporting categories they like, they are still going to struggle massively to date and find partners.

Well, you say that... But how else are they going to get there?

Perhaps transwomen shouldn’t cheat their way into women’s sport.

Also the way to improve their "prospects for dating and finding a partner if that's what they want" is by tackling transphobia.

If trans people weren't treated as modern day lepers (as so many Mumsnet posters clearly believe they should be) they would find it easier to date.

As it is they are spat on for doing their job: www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-61745903

And receive threats of violence for the crime of participating in sport: www.lbc.co.uk/news/trans-cyclist-threatened-with-kneecapping-after-boriss-gender-sports-comments/

People on this site would be better off tackling the root causes of such transphobia instead of pretending all trans people are a "huge problem to a sane world" as Joyce does.

Who you calling Stupid ;o)

You say that, but I know a number of trans people who became a lot happier after they transitioned.

That only works as a comparison if you think trans people can and should be "cured", that they're just suffering from an illness. 

@GoodJanetBadJanet I thought trans people were all at risk of depression and even suicide. That sounds like a mental health condition if gender dysphoria is that crippling. Is it or isn't it? We're told that using the wrong pronouns and not affirming is denying life saving treatment yet you say it's not an illness?

no arguing with stupid.

Me too! If they could avoid infertility, anorgasmia, osteoporosis, unnecessary surgeries etc. that would be a bonus, too...!

Classic case here of being so 'open-minded' your brain has fallen out. What an idiotic and reprehensible statement. No child is going to be happy in the long term once they grasp what's been done to their health, their life expectancy, their fertility, their ability to have a normal sex life and their prospects for dating and finding a partner if that's what they want.

@Hearach15 "No I understand Joyce better than you do. She doesn't even want adults to transition and believes that all who do are a "huge problem to a sane world."
I humbly suggest you watch the video."

I have watched the video; I watched it as it was streamed live.

I suspect you have not even read her book "Trans - when ideology meets reality".

I suspect that you have no "understanding" of Ms Joyce in any way at all.

Good for those parents. If my child was trans I would do the same because I would want them to happy. 🤗

No I understand Joyce better than you do. She doesn't even want adults to transition and believes that all who do are a "huge problem to a sane world."

I humbly suggest you watch the video.

The majority of trans people who chose surgery report that it does wonders for their mental health.

Where did I hear that? Harvard University:

"Gender-affirming surgeries are associated with numerous positive health benefits, including lower rates of psychological distress and suicidal ideation, as well as lower rates of smoking, according to new research led by Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health."

www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/mental-health-benefits-associated-with-gender-affirming-surgery/

Alison, you're the one swearing on this thread. I do not understand why my mainstream opinions so enrage you. They are quite commonly held.

People alter their healthy bodies all the time with plastic surgery.

There's some evidence that even relatively low-risk cosmetic procedures which don't end up causing infertility, incontinence and a lifetime of hospital appointments aren't good for mental health.

digest.bps.org.uk/2012/02/15/mental-health-problems-worsen-after-cosmetic-surgery/

Indeed, it seems to suggest that people with psychological problems are more likely to end up having cosmetic surgery.

Thanks, Helle! She links to an excellent article in that blog piece: "Making Light of Detransition - by Dave Hewitt" voidifremoved.substack.com/p/making-light-of-detransition?s=r

People alter their healthy bodies all the time with plastic surgery.

Adults, not children as young as 4. Yes, some parents & "clinicians" (I use the term lightly) put children on a set of medical transing processes as young as 4.

It's a scandal.

Perhaps there's a class assignment about progressing through the several stages of Harry Frankfurt's On Bullshit.

www2.csudh.edu/ccauthen/576f12/frankfurt__harry_-_on_bullshit.pdf

Luckily, this article Helen has released is free and available for all to read. Even those late comers so keen on creating deja vu on this thread without progressing it at all can read it.

It goes so way to see what she means in her use of blunt language.

www.thehelenjoyce.com/joyce-activated-issue-8/

Language that extremist activists have twisted, and edited, and twisted some more.

@Hearach15 "This is clearly not what Joyce believes. She wants to stop people transitioning because then they become "a huge problem to a sane world"."

I think you misunderstand Ms Joyce. Nothing can be done about adults who have already altered their bodies. What we have to do here is make accommodation that obviates the impact on the rest of us where our sexed bodies matter to us.

Beyond that, when it comes to minors, we should do all we can to take care of these youngsters and avoid social, pharmaceutical and eventual surgical alterations to their bodies. Something like 80%+ of such children experience relief from their gender distress when puberty completes its process and will most likely live their adult lives as gay men and lesbian women.

Similarly, young adults need our care and exploratory and constructive therapeutic care to support them in their full understanding of what the outcomes and impacts of their decisions are likely to be for their lives and the lives of others.

@Hearach15

What are you, a little owen jones cover band? We've already been there, done that and got the fucking tshirts this week. You are a day late and a dollar short with this tedious faux outrage.