So disgusted tonight

Is there a link to the transcription, please?

I don’t think we can (or should) try to stop adults transitioning if that is what they want to do. They’re not doing any harm to others by what they choose to do to their bodies. I like Joyce but I think she’s wrong there. I think she’s right that the underlying belief system of gender ideology is completely incoherent. Discussing and demonstrating that is treated as ‘transphobia’ when it’s just the application of logic to a set of philosophical claims. I also think it’s true that when the claims are properly dismantled, fewer people will support the idea that young people should be encouraged to transition, and will recognise that it does harm.

I still don’t think an adult’s choice is any of anyone else’s business, as long as they’re not demanding I agree with them.

While I haven't caught up with this properly, what I saw on Twitter was enough to make me vow to go nowhere near it for the weekend.

The histrionic abuse and threats from Willoughby and Prior were something else, even for them. The toxicity seemed to have ramped up a notch.

The text posted earlier came across as lacking in nuance and tact and somewhat evangelical. Personally, I think it best to avoid absolutes. However, for those who took greater umbrage surely the best response is "I disagree...", not death threats.

Which sounds conspiracy theory like except that there is no evidence base.

Women like Joyce & Staniland do their research. Usually know both sides of any and every argument and consider the details.

I'd absolutely agree with you on Joyce and I think her book is wonderul, but I find Staniland very one-dimensional and lacking in any real substance. Unlike Joyce, when reading Stanliland's twitter feed it's apparent she doesn't really have the chops for debate.

Quite, what or who is pushing surgery as an option? 💵

Another thing detransitioned people notice. Complete lack of offer for any counselling.

The least bad option would have been therapy, not surgery FFS.

Yes flamm and we do know about the impact of social media and the internet and porn (and associated social misogyny and sexual assaults) on mental health.

We do know that detransitioned people are describing those same impacts on their decisions to transition in the first place.

This isn't rocket science l.

What's the phrase?

'Start thinking now of reasons you supported the sterilisation of children'

We await the Cass Report.

Samphire, I don't mind those posters as I know others are reading. More fool them not to heed what's going on.

Respect to those who do stop and actually listen.

I don't mind providing the evidence, though it's horrifying. It reasserts my own views and there's never any that comes back.

We are totally talking cross-purposes. Helen believes that there are individuals with gender dysphoria and that as the treatment for gender dysphoria is experimental medication with side-effects of sterilisation, reduced bone density, removal of healthy body parts and life-long medication we should reduce the incidence of gender dysphoria.

Owen Jones believes that individuals with gender dysphoria have an innate gendered soul and by saying one wants to reduce the rate, one wants to kill them.

As a former tomboy, I do not believe that gender dysphoria is innate. It makes zero sense for the ‘social construct’ of gender to be innate.

There is a condition called gender dysphoria, it is increasing through social contagion and causing real distress. It is beyond madness to believe that cross-sex hormones, sterilisation of children and amputation of body parts make people feel better. Seriously???

And osteoporosis, heart issues and endocrine issues.

But he was an adult, and he decided on 'the least bad option' - do you think that option should be taken away from him?

And yet - a number of detransitioned people are describing the fact they weren't able to access nor were given all the information about the impact on the body nor were they interested until the damage was done.

Transition isn't the only option for GD. Many live with GD without medically transitioning.

The reality of transition:

Incontinence pads seem to be a common need among males and females.

tullipr.substack.com/p/lost-boys-part-iii

I always find these threads depressing. Women, like Joyce, Staniland, FWR posters in general, do their research. Usually know both sides of any and every argument and consider the details. We become as well informed as we can be.

And STILL we get posters like @Foilball who ask daft, trite, insulting questions and NEVER actually engage in an exchange of information and discussion. They are by far less well informed, don't even try to assimilate various contrasting data, to understand the strengths and weaknesses of research methodology, etc.

But they do feel able to dismiss anything they disagree with, often flippantly, always with little thought. That is what is so very damaging. And yet they see themselves as 'the good guys' and GC women as evil and harmful.

I want to be proven wrong. I want a poster like @Foilball to come back and engage in a proper discussion, exchanging information and speaking civilly. Bit I shan't hold my breath.

So yes. They're right.

Foiball.

If trans people are in such distress, and research shows that transitioning doesn't lessen the distress - then why shouldn't two people want less people in distress?

Why shouldn't two people want less people to lose their breasts, to lose the ability for adult sexual function, to end up sterile, to have early onset menopause, to have osteroporsis in their 20s, to end up with brittle bones and walking with sticks?

Surely you aren't advocating for more people to suffer the consequences of being given the same drugs that they use to castrate rapists?

We also need to consider the fact that the US is enormous. It relies on private healthcare.

Ask and you get. Supply and demand, demand and supply.

The industry is very lucrative.

The internet means the rest of the world gets easy access to American trends.

Here, we have the nhs and the need more evidence, hence Cass. There's no evidence base. It's all experimental.

(Btw The first surgeon to do a vaginalplasty was apparently also a nazi surgical experimenter who experimented on and sterilised disabled people.)

Malcolm's thread, very good at historical evidence references and has referenced threads within threads.

twitter.com/twisterfilm/status/1478230008732737537?s=21&t=ftBXXvCqCL8Q3qm3dghgmg

I've been reading Malcom Clark's recent threads.

He's detailing issues with the origins of the idea of gender dysphoria as a diagnosis or a "thing."

He looks at a condition where people want limbs amputated. John Money, a founder of the diagnosis of GD, likened the two.

He also looks at multiple identity disorder or disassociative disorder and tracks how one book, where a psych offered to work with a woman for free and also gave her many drugs, kicked off a DID craze. Which was later found to be social contagion but also in collaboration with psychiatry. Patients admitted they felt they had to agree. Denial was given as proof of the condition.

why does she get to decide what other people do with their lives and their bodies?

When you understand where it's all come from and what drives is (DID is making a come back via tiktok) are they truly making these decisions about their lives?

Or is it covered by society, social media and ultimately pharmaceutical industry?

Lupron gets x4 the cash when administering to children than adults.

We have adults who've taken pb with hearts the size of 9 yr old children. We have adults who transitioned at 25, 42 10 years later truly regretting it due to how unwell they've become.

Who's really deciding what happens to their bodies? Can they consent?

Because the rise in teenage girl referrals are scary for parents who have looked at the stats.
I have attached an image but if you have look at stats in UK, US, Canada, Australia they are similar.
Teenage girls are damaging their bodies at an alarming rate.
This is a future cultural scandal.

But he was an adult, and he decided on 'the least bad option' - do you think that option should be taken away from him?

Nobody has said that! What HAS been said is that the standard response to any dysphoria should never be unquestioning affirmation. We don't do that to anorexic people or people that self mutilate, cut bodies they don't like to see. Only trans people. Why is that?

We know from a whole host of stories, from detransitioners to trans people who have lived for decades in their chosen gender, even longitudinal studies into MH in transitioned adults, that transitioning does not, in the long term, change feelings of self loathing, depression, discomfort, even suicide ideation. None of it is sugnificantly decreased by any medical intervention, any social changes. Like every other dysphoria the negative mental health aspects are managed only by ongoing psychological intervention.

Google it, use Google Scholar and stretch your knowledge. Grounded Theory studies (where the words and feelings of the participants are the only variables considered) and long term statistical analysis of clinical data all show the same thing. It is interesting to see that in studies using self reporting, where the questions of necessity signpost the study intentions, the opposite results are found. There is, in my opinion, based on reading many varied studies, a desperate need for trans individuals to have utterly unbiased research onto what interventions actually do some good. Shit like this from Jones, Pink News et al are fuck all use to the real trans people being shafted by their fuckwitted politicking.

Joyce and Staniland speak out of compassion for the individuals. Jones, Pink News, Stonewall speak out of self interested political egotism.

Give me an honest and thoughtful response @Foilball Why is the gender dysphoria the only dysphoria we 'need' to treat with absolute acceptance and affirmation?

How do you know they were talking about teenage girls?

They were advocating protecting teenage girls from the trauma of transition. I liken it to protecting teenage girls from anorexia in the 90s.
Positive affirmation of children is wrong.

No no, absolutely not! But it’s major surgery and a lifetime of medicalisation. It’s not something that should be undertaken lightly or without recognition of the costs.