So disgusted tonight

Really good point. I agree fully with both the Helens, if people disagree they should argue with reasons. Violent threats are not something that should be tolerated.

It's from 4m15s in this video

Just to ask again - is the main point of the OP the fact that what was said attracted death threats and violence? What was said that justified this?

Whereas I am in the camp that agrees we shouldn’t prevent adults ‘transitioning’, but I have no idea what is denoted by ‘genuinely trans’. That isn’t snark, I just don’t believe there is any objective criteria for that label.

This is the thing. Is it AGP, a sexual fetish, is it internalised homophobia, is it social contagion, is it wanting to escape being female, for instance due to so much objectification.

Because, we all know, it's not 'being born in the wrong body'. So why wouldn't you want to address all those reasons and reduce them in society?

My question would be what is the motivation for transition that is considered beneficial and positive enough to be causing the outrage over the concept of reducing numbers.

Going back to your question @WarriorN I probably skated over what you asked about children whose parents transition as I find it so difficult to answer. But it has to be answered. The child’s welfare is paramount. Your father presenting as female and making alterations to his body doesn’t make him your mother, and (in my humble opinion) when children are forced to pretend otherwise it’s harmful. Depending on circumstances I think there should be social services involvement if a child is subjected to compelled speech in this way.

I am meaning to say society should have been very clear from the get go that transitioning to be a trans women means you can’t go into women’s sport, jails, toilets etc.

I found it a complete mental mind fuck that people were trying to delete the existence of sex or to conflate it with wholly the same as gender. I have huge sympathy for say 18yos who transitioned based on this and will have to go through same but in reverse (ie, that gender and sex aren’t the same and won’t be treated the same when they transitioned at a time where they were told by society it would be).

I hope that makes sense

Sorry - my question is for @LemonSwan

From reading that transcript that’s horrific.

Where did you read the full transcript, please?

‘but that’s doesn’t mean I don’t think genuinely trans people shouldn’t be able to live how they want or stop them from transitioning.’

Whereas I am in the camp that agrees we shouldn’t prevent adults ‘transitioning’, but I have no idea what is denoted by ‘genuinely trans’. That isn’t snark, I just don’t believe there is any objective criteria for that label.

I’m confused: your final sentence here contradicts your opening paragraph. What do you mean to say?

@Foilball

I see a difference between those who claim transgenderism is a civil rights issue and those who say it's a mental health issue (gender dysphoria).

The furious reaction to even the concept of a reduction in those who identify as trans seems to be coming from the civil rights group.

So I have a question foilball. Would you like to see a cure for gender dysphoria?

Yes this, I am gender critical through and through but that’s doesn’t mean I don’t think genuinely trans people shouldn’t be able to live how they want or stop them from transitioning. From reading that transcript that’s horrific.

Yes I think we have to be very careful with the children but if your an adult it’s your choice.

Doesn’t mean I think we should get rid of sex either. Just that if you decide to opt out of your birth sex, that’s fine, but you can’t opt into the other sex either. It’s essentially that they have become unsexed in my eyes and instead ‘gendered’ and that’s fine too but in certain circumstances will require special accommodations.

Part of the reason I was so upset by the trans issue (over it now because I am not taking the mental load for the worlds stupidity); was that many young adults were transitioning at a time when the whole world was saying they can opt into the other sex wholly. I knew that would never stand the test of time and I found it very cruel that people were transitioning based on false promises, and the effect this would have in later life when the middle ground arose.

I stopped reading the G a while back thanks to their series on “living in a woman’s body” that featured - yep, you’ve guessed it - men.

‘Adults may be able to make choices to self harm, but the NHS should not be paying for it. Especially when children have to wait months or years for mental health support, and waiting lists for long term and serious conditions are sky high.’

Possibly true. I think if someone has a diagnosis of serious and lasting dysphoric feelings, I can get behind contributing to making them feel better. But I also think there needs to be an enormous amount of research to fill the gaps in the evidence base about what the modern phenomenon of gender ideology is actually about.

‘But it can be honest with effective gatekeeping.’

I agree.

Adults may be able to make choices to self harm, but the NHS should not be paying for it.
Especially when children have to wait months or years for mental health support, and waiting lists for long term and serious conditions are sky high.

‘Would you feel the same if someone wanted to chop their arm off, or their leg, due to a dysphoria? Would you let them bash on because 'they are an adult', or would you try and treat them first before they carried out that act?’

It’s a contentious question. I don’t know. I think those people are very unwell, and I think people who desire surgical transition are probably unwell as well, but I don’t see it as exactly analogous. Disfigurement of the body would give no benefit at all and is unequivocally harmful, whereas (for me) sex reassignment is more cosmetic, I suppose. A breast reduction, for example, is something a woman might have ordinary reasons for requesting - she doesn’t like the feel of her body, she experiences pain etc. And we wouldn’t say that was harm.

So I think it’s about degree, really. I think gender nullification (as they call it) crosses my personal line as to the difference between alteration and harm. But I’m not sure someone having their genitals altered does altogether.

It’s difficult.

No I agree. It can't be unlawful. For psychological reasons as much as anything; people will push back. But it can be honest with effective gatekeeping.

That's all the Helens are saying.

Transabled transwoman

‘It gets complicated though Tabby when we think of children who's parents have transitioned and partners etc (trans widows.) the harm isn't just within the individual's body.’

It can get complicated, of course. But I don’t think it’s a basis for making the act of transition unlawful.

‘By this reasoning we shouldn't interfere with adults who self harm, who have substance misuse issues, who are morbidly obese and/or eating themselves towards type 2 diabetes, who are suicidal, who recklessly endanger their own safety, who join a cult, who give all their money to internet fraudsters....’

But when we say ‘intervene’, what do we mean? I have no problem with people saying ‘that’s bullshit’ about the underlying claims of gender ideology. I also have no problem with saying I believe surgical transition is a physical solution to what is probably a psychological issue. But no, we can’t (generally) forcibly prevent people being fat, or drinking alcohol, or endangering themselves, unless they are of truly unsound mind. The bar to being judged unable to make your own choices (even awful choices) is high, and should be high.

I have absolutely no truck with any of the claims of the ideology and I think childhood transition is medical malpractice of the most serious type. But adults (mostly) can do things I don’t think they should do.

Trans-able people do exist. By which I mean healthy people who want to be disabled.

It gets complicated though Tabby when we think of children who's parents have transitioned and partners etc (trans widows.) the harm isn't just within the individual's body.

And then they go on tiktok and boast about it....

I think adults probably do have a right to self harm but only with the full information and evidence base provided. It's more permanent than smoking weed or doing drugs. It's more akin to anorexia, which is obviously understood in deeper terms of control and anxiety.

There's an interesting discussion of the impact of the placebo effect of an operation and associated pain on a common shoulder issue. It was found to be purely placebo and the mechanism was the actual operation. (Thanks Malcolm for detailing this.)

Eg plasters for a child who's scraped their knee. Magic.

@tabbycatstripy Would you feel the same if someone wanted to chop their arm off, or their leg, due to a dysphoria? Would you let them bash on because 'they are an adult', or would you try and treat them first before they carried out that act?

I don’t think we can (or should) try to stop adults transitioning if that is what they want to do. They’re not doing any harm to others by what they choose to do to their bodies.

By this reasoning we shouldn't interfere with adults who self harm, who have substance misuse issues, who are morbidly obese and/or eating themselves towards type 2 diabetes, who are suicidal, who recklessly endanger their own safety, who join a cult, who give all their money to internet fraudsters....

Because they're adults and it's their life. FFS.