So disgusted tonight

‘Ah, OK. So do you believe that trans people have a medical problem - maybe a mental disorder? That a cure is possible?’

I couldn’t say. I suspect there’s a psychological component to it. But to what extent that’s disorderly I don’t know. Same for whether it can be ‘cured’. No idea.

Ah, OK. So do you believe that trans people have a medical problem - maybe a mental disorder? That a cure is possible?

Genuine questions, I would like to know. If you do think that, is it a common belief here?

Also, I guess there is quite a good analogy here in regard to disabled people. Of course finding a cure for a treatable disability is nothing but laudable. But there is no cure for, e.g. Down's syndrome. You wouldn't put trans people in that category then, presumably?

MangyInseam

Again, big and difficult questions. Is it a medical condition, or set of conditions? If it is, is it treatable (can be alleviated or prevented or ‘cured’) through therapeutic methods? If it isn’t, is the current approach better any way?

I don’t know. Time will tell.

‘But they don't stop at doing things to their own bodies. They want the rest of the world to engage with their version of reality. That's where the wider harm to others happens.’

I agree entirely that this is harmful. I also think it’s separable (or should be separable, if people behaved more sensibly) from the core issue.

‘And I'm not convinced that adults are or should be allowed to do anything they want even to their own bodies. That's why we intervene in suicide attempts and self-harm. That's why we have safety measures and safety rules in sports. That's why you cannot buy more than 2 packets of ibuprofen at one time.’

Huge ethical questions here. Where we draw the line on some of them is contested, and I don’t think situations can be equated quite so neatly as this.

If we are just talking about people from their own choice, not medical necessity, deciding to live as the other sex, then it is clearly not a medically necessary treatment. And it is risky no matter how you slice it.

Normally medical ethics does not look at this kind of thing lightly. The huge increase in cosmetic procedures has really blurred the lines here, but really it shouldn't have. Feeling better about your nose or lips or whatever doesn't outweigh the risks in a way that is really in line with proper medical practice.

If society wants to train up a bunch of cosmetic surgeons who work commercially they should be up front about it, it has nothing to do with medical practice and shouldn't be funed in any way through public money. And they shouldn't be subject to the same limits as doctors.

Yes, of course I agree with the points you make, completely. But that's not what she was saying.

The message of the "every one of those people" quotes was that ALL trans people are problematic. They are ALL "a huge problem to a sane world". That is what she said. She wasn't differentiating in any way between young lesbians under severe social pressure, children who are given medical treatment to transition, trans extremists who are undemining the whole concept of sex and influencing almost all of our institutions, or the great majority of adult trans individuals who just want to quietly get on with their lives (very often without and medical intervention). Mostly they accept the sex they were born with and have no desire to undermine women's rights. They feel the trans activists are setting their cause back decades. I have a very close family member who is trans and conforms to the last grouping. I've discussed this with her at length, so I have a fair idea what I'm talking about.

And nobody here was calling her out on it. So a reasonable assumption is that people here agree with her.

"every one of those people is basically you know a huge problem to a sane world". That statement is not OK, in my view, and if the view of the posters here is that it's acceeptable then I guess this isn't the place for me.

‘The equivalent is let's try and reduce the number of disabled people in society, by finding a cure for whichever disability they have.’

Thing is, you can only ever offer a cure. If someone believes there is no medical problem and they prefer to be as they are, that’s not up to us.

I don’t think we can (or should) try to stop adults transitioning if that is what they want to do. They’re not doing any harm to others by what they choose to do to their bodies.

But they don't stop at doing things to their own bodies. They want the rest of the world to engage with their version of reality. That's where the wider harm to others happens.

And I'm not convinced that adults are or should be allowed to do anything they want even to their own bodies. That's why we intervene in suicide attempts and self-harm. That's why we have safety measures and safety rules in sports. That's why you cannot buy more than 2 packets of ibuprofen at one time.

Imagine if she was saying that about disabled people for example, who also tend to cost the NHS a great deal of money and need special treatment in society.

The equivalent is let's try and reduce the number of disabled people in society, by finding a cure for whichever disability they have.

Not stigmatise them for being disabled and eliminate them!

Violent threats is all they've got.

‘But how can that happen without doctors being involved? Having doctors give patients harmful treatments is really not good.’

I agree, but the research isn’t there yet to demonstrate whether it does do harm that negates any perceived benefit.

But how can that happen without doctors being involved? Having doctors give patients harmful treatments is really not good.

‘surley by making these "every one of those people" statements she actually IS saying, or at least strongly implying that she sees them as "a coherent and innate class of people". If he doesn't think that then why is she saying this stuff?’

I think we mean slightly different things here. Obviously there is a coherent class of people who call themselves ‘trans’. But that could also be true of people who call themselves anything. They also have some (perhaps just one) shared characteristic, and that is something they call a ‘gender identity’ that is different to their sex. But what HJ seems not to accept (and she may be right) is that there is any innate or stable set of attributes that gives rise to this identification. To her (I think) it’s a label people use who have many fundamentally different experiences or attributes, and hence (despite the name) they may not represent one coherent class of people.

‘But I categorically do not want to eliminate trans people from society.’

I don’t, but I do think some people have adopted a belief in a state for which there is very little evidence, and so some people are transitioning physically when actually psychological support would help them reconcile themselves with their sexualities or their physical bodies, or help resolve the dysphoria. You (not you in particular) can see that as ‘eliminationist’ or you can unstop your ears and see that it’s a different conception of how to help people who are suffering.

What worries me is the way that older males are so keen for young people to transition, and they obviously see that there is something in it for themselves. Why would they think the idea of children and teenagers who seem younger than they are due to pbs is such a good thing? Why are they using young peoples distress and confusion to validate their own choices. Why is this dysphoria so much more special than the old and unfashionable psychiatric dysphorias that make some people believe they are someone famous, for example? We can be sympathetic to their problem but not affirm that they are right. While I suppose that people as adults have the right to change their bodies , I would always try to talk about why they feel they have a need for eg cosmetic surgery. And as long as women are not allowed to choose to be sterilised and have to wait a long time for reconstructive surgery after devastating injuries, than this kind of alteration should be done at the persons own cost. And after the age of 25. And of course receive the type of counselling/ care that might change minds. With reminders that you can never be the opposite sex ,nor identify into the opposite sex.

Or have I got this wrong - ARE we trying to eliminate trans people?

We're not trying to eliminate the people, but eliminate, or find a cure for, what appears to be a damaging mental health condition for which the current 'treatment' is opposite sex hormones and surgery.

They are saying that gender dysphoria/being trans isn't a mental health condition, it's a normal part of the human experience, like being gay.

But being gay doesn't require any medical treatment, whereas gender dysphoria/being trans does.

If they could explain why gender dysphoria/being trans isn't a mental health condition yet requires surgical and hormonal interventions to relieve mental distress, perhaps we could find some agreement about how to help these people.

If trans people just wanted to dress and behave against gendered expectations, and fund their own cosmetic procedures, there would be no issue.

Thanks for that, tabbycatstripy. But, surley by making these "every one of those people" statements she actually IS saying, or at least strongly implying that she sees them as "a coherent and innate class of people". If he doesn't think that then why is she saying this stuff?

This thread seems to be full of people trying to justify her words and make her position sound less transphobic. But as someone who is fairly new to this, it sounds terribly offensive to me. Imagine if she was saying that about disabled people for example, who also tend to cost the NHS a great deal of money and need special treatment in society.

@ChristabelHolloway

I'm GC, I'm concerned about the erasure of women's spaces and women's rights. I'm terrified by the concept of "no debate". I'm appalled that women have had their lives turned inside out for daring to speak scientific fact.

But I categorically do not want to eliminate trans people from society. And I think it's really important to say that "out loud" (even though I know it will never be screenshot and posted on twitter!)

Or have I got this wrong - ARE we trying to eliminate trans people?

This, as a question doesn't make any sense. Are you talking about young lesbians who feel they must present as men, because society still doesn't like the concept of butch lesbians?

When you say eliminate what does that mean? I'd like to eliminate the sexism and homophobia that leads young lesbians to feel they must present as male.

TRAs tell me that's transphobic. Because there is some other bloody reason why they are presenting as male.

Well what is it?

(i'm not asking you personally).

What are the reasons why the transwidows partners transitioned? Fetishising women's oppression? Who wouldn't want that to stop?

‘Or have I got this wrong - ARE we trying to eliminate trans people?’

No, I think HJ was speaking very much as she finds: she feels sympathy with trans people and views their condition (in the neutral sense) as a condition in the medical sense. That isn’t genocidal rage. That’s absurd. She just doesn’t agree with the philosophical claim that ‘transgender people’ are a coherent and innate class of people. And since the evidence doesn’t appear to prove that they are, this isn’t an irrational position. She didn’t say she wants to force people not to transition, either, just that she thinks it would be beneficial if they didn’t.

I agree. It is not what was said by the Helens that is the problem. The problem is that the people who disagree with them cannot do so without resorting to death threats and violence.

I think every word that comes out of Tommy Robinson's mouth is an offensive lie - but I wouldn't send him death threats or threats of violence or anything else.

It does seem that its time to designate TRAs as extremists and use the relevant laws to deal with them.

Own Jones and his cronies are vile. Medical transition is experimental, almost certainly damaging physically (and emotionally/mentally) to many people who undergo it, and a drain on the NHS. Women's fundamental sex-based rights are being hugely undermined to the detriment of more than half the population, and most major institutions are in thrall to powerful trans ideologists. And kids are being brainwashed, leading to an epidemic of "trans by contagion".

BUT.

This transcript makes me deeply unhappy. WHY do people give hostages to fortune like this? How is it in any way helpful to the cause of sanity (our cause, after all) to say things like ...

"every one of those people is a person who's been damaged".

"every one of those people is basically you know a huge problem to a sane world" (my emphasis).

"every one of them is a difficulty"

Is it any wonder that Jones and his ilk paint us as rabid transphobes? We are not actually trying to erase trans people from the face of the earth, are we? We simply have large-scale legitimate concerns. This stuff sets our cause back and provides free ammunition for the trans lobby to smear us with (if you'll excuse my mixed metaphor).

Or have I got this wrong - ARE we trying to eliminate trans people?

‘The expansion of the trans umbrella to include transvestites as well as transsexuals was pushed for by Press for Change (people like Christine Burns and Stephen Whittle, who are both transsexuals).’

And went on and on until the ‘umbrella’ of ‘the most marginalised people in the world’ included male bankers who sometimes present as female in private and call themselves ‘they’.

Disastrous.

I wholly agree, but they did not say that.

Perhaps that is what they meant - in which case I think they need your assistance in respectful and clear communication! We could all use a Datun to aid our eloquence 😂

As it stand though just from that small snippet of transcript it’s really not a great look, and makes GC look like some unreasonable extremist position. It is harmful to our position. We hardly want to give bloody Owen something he’s actually right to call out.

The post I just posted a link to is an excerpt from a longer piece about the trans umbrella and its origins.

womenspeakscotland.com/2021/06/23/the-trans-umbrella-is-older-than-you-think/