So disgusted tonight

What I assumed was that a group of people as articulate and educated as those on this board, would understand this. I thought they'd be opposed to all the extreme stuff, but not tar all trans people with the same brush.

How can we tell the difference?

We oppose the erosion of women's rights. We oppose the insane adoption of extremist trans ideology by all our major institutions. And we oppose the damage being done to people under 18 as a result of all this.

Where are your voices?

Yes, you're describing gender dysphoria. And you're putting it down to a physical cause.

There is, as far as I'm aware, no evidence to support this. I believe the studies that were done on brains actually tested for homosexuality, not gender confusion. And one of the conclusions drawn, wasnt the wrong brain in the wrong body, but that there is a preponderance for intense self examination.

If there was some kind of genetic testing that you could do to prove whether or not somebody had the brain of the opposite sex, then you would see every trans person clamouring to fund the research into it, because it would legitimise their position once and for all.

The headlines would be everywhere.

that's not happening. There is no body of evidence to support it.

And whereas I understand the argument that says well we just haven't found the evidence yet, we have found the narratives of men who transition. And that doesn't support the 'born in the wrong body' theory either.

It gets unnecessary over complicated with a massive layer of sexism when people really think that a man can be a woman, simply based on the way he thinks or feels.

The definition of a woman is not a man with gender dysphoria.

If gender dysphoria is caused by some kind of genetic abnormality, then let's fund the research into identifying it. Think of the massive amounts of angst and heartache that would save.

People should have the right, and theoretically do have this right, to present however they wish. However they do not and cannot have the right to trample over others in their pursuit of living as their authentic self.

This.

This

It shouldn't matter whether a person is 'genuinely trans' - whatever that may mean - or just trying it on for size.

People should have the right, and theoretically do have this right, to present however they wish. However they do not and cannot have the right to trample over others in their pursuit of living as their authentic self.

Thank for your question, Datun.

First should say that I think there is effectively an epidemic of trans hysteria, for want of a better word, among very young people. In particular it's clear that not all the autistic teenage girls presenting as trans are actually trans. In the same way that anorexia and self-harming tend to go in cycles, being trans is a current coping strategy for some confused young people who are not trans. This wouldn't be too bad if they were left alone but of course the current fashion for early medical intervention is dangerous and causing irreversible damage in some cases.

To answer your question. What do I think it actually is? I think it's similar to homosexuality in that it resides in physical differences in the brain. We know far too little about the brain to confidently say how trans individuals differ from staight ones, gay ones, autistic ones or anything else. But the preliminary studies I've looked at do seem to show some differences. I don't have studies to hand as it's a while since I researched all this.

What I don't think it is, is a lifestyle a choice, a fashion statement or a mental illness. I don't think it can be cured any more than being gay or autistic can be cured. Do people here belive that homosexuality can be cured? Until fairly recently it was classed as a mental illness in the DSM, but now it's understood as innate. I remember a time when autism was largely blamed on faulty parenting. We know better now. Why should it be any different with being trans?

The trans people I know and have known have been very clear about what they believe. They know they are of the sex their gentitalia suggests. But that makes them very unhappy because they don't feel whichever sex it is. Exactly what that means is hard for them to articulate but it's very clear to them and very real. I don't know anyone who has had surgery but I do know those who take hormones. They are much happier living as the opposite sex, but they realise this causes problems in society and do everything they can to minimise those problems. In other words they are the polar opposite of strident trans activists.

What I assumed was that a group of people as articulate and educated as those on this board, would understand this. I thought they'd be opposed to all the extreme stuff, but not tar all trans people with the same brush.

We oppose the erosion of women's rights. We oppose the insane adoption of extremist trans ideology by all our major institutions. And we oppose the damage being done to people under 18 as a result of all this.

But if people here think being trans is a mental illness, a medical problem or a lifestyle choice, then this isn't the place for me.

Read what they said.

I agree to read what they said. Do you have a link to the full transcription, please?

This is depressing. I want to be part of a group of people who oppose the extremism that the trans movement has become, but who accept that some people are genuinely trans. That isn't what I'm finding here at the moment.

Well this is the place to say exactly what you mean 😁

What do you mean by genuinely trans?

You're liking it to sexual orientation? How are you doing that?

Someone who is homosexual doesn't 'feel' like they are attracted to the opposite sex, but they're not really. They actually are.

What equivalence with being trans, are you trying to draw?

Which means that sometimes we end up with an oddly stilted conversation or one that has an obvious elephant in the room. Like this one...

The other pachyderm in the room is that in the old days 'trans' really meant a form of body dysmorphia - a feeling that one's body was not right for them and that they should not have a penis or whatever. This was rare and complex and in some cases 'cured' only by surgery - 'cured' in quote marks because it involved (and still involves) radical and dangerous surgery and the results are often not brilliant. Now we are supposed to believe that people 'feel a gender inside' or that their brains don't match their gender or similar. Beyond this we are told that humans (all of us) somehow 'feel a gender inside' and if this does not match with biological reality then surgery is required. I'm sorry, but there are multiple aspects of this that do not match my lived experience of feeling the brutal reality of being forcibly 'gendered' as feminine under patriarchal rule rather than it being an essential part me.

The fact is there is zero evidence there is some kind of innate trans person. Body dysphoria is a medical, mental health problem. Having to go in for body modification to alleviate it is a poor outcome.

I agree. This is what most people are tiptoeing around.

You are misinterpreting that, I think.

Dysphoria is a medical condition.

Being gay is a sexual orientation.

Both are real, exist.

There are also other ways of being transgender, but one of the T+C's here prevents discussion of them as suggesting that some are a sexual fetish is, apparently, an unacceptable insult. So, despite it too existing, being real, we cannot discuss it without risking deletion or a ban.

Which means that sometimes we end up with an oddly stilted conversation or one that has an obvious elephant in the room. Like this one...

It’s interesting just how many excuses will be made, how many knots people will twist themselves up in to deny the reality that what they said was really quite transphobic. Interesting that people are falling over themselves to say “oh no they didn’t mean that, they meant x”. Read what they said. Listen to them again.

sone posters have made excellent posts explaining different viewpoints. It’s not wrong to say that the language they use is harmful, even if you agree with their general points.

‘Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying. It seems to me that you, and probably many others here, DO think there is a medical problem/mental disorder/something that can be "cured", but when you're challenged you backtrack.’

No, you haven’t understood me. I’m sorry, I probably wasn’t clear. I think it’s entirely possible (even probable) that the state some people call ‘trans’ arises from predominantly psychological factors. It may be a medical condition as well. I suppose that is an example of a social construct - what we regard as a medical problem is partially a constructed reality.

So I am not backtracking. I just don’t know.

I also have no idea whether or not it can be ‘cured’.

I agree with Datun.

There is a genetic intervention for spinal muscular atrophy of a particular severity that can be fatal and has a substantial impact on quality of life.

www.england.nhs.uk/2021/03/nhs-england-strikes-deal-on-life-saving-gene-therapy-drug-that-can-help-babies-with-rare-genetic-disease-move-and-walk/

Shortly, there will be genetic therapies for cystic fibrosis and haemophilia. These will reduce the numbers of people whose longevity and quality of life are affected by these conditions.

I don't think it's reasonable to tear apart sentences in isolation from the rest of a discussion.

Yes. It's one of the reasons that I've asked for a link to a full transcription and not screenshots of parts of it. I'm quite perturbed by the posters who respond with some degree of clamour and distress without any good faith posting of the entire piece that might establish the general context of what seems to be a conversation that lasted for more than an hour.

but who accept that some people are genuinely trans.

What do you mean by 'genuinely trans?'

But ... you just said "Thing is, you can only ever offer a cure. If someone believes there is no medical problem and they prefer to be as they are (implying they have a choice in the matter), that’s not up to us."

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying. It seems to me that you, and probably many others here, DO think there is a medical problem/mental disorder/something that can be "cured", but when you're challenged you backtrack.

This is depressing. I want to be part of a group of people who oppose the extremism that the trans movement has become, but who accept that some people are genuinely trans. That isn't what I'm finding here at the moment.

Do you think that gay people "prefer to be as they are" too?

And nobody here was calling her out on it. So a reasonable assumption is that people here agree with her.

Not true. Some of us did question her wording, including me.

The evidence will be non existent if things continue as they are. Nobody would be allowed to run meaningful studies. We have seen far too much interference with academic studies into all aspects of transgenderism.

‘But it raises serious ethical questions for medical professionals: can a doctor ethically undertake treatment on a patient, even if that patient is fully consenting, if they know that treatment will not help the patient, and possibly harm them?’

I would say not. I think society will move away from these treatments. But the evidence base for that shift will need to be very strong.

‘But when the patient demands to completely control the treatment?

There is no truly equivalent perspective in any other area of medicine is there?’

I’m not sure. I suspect not.

Two years ago, the American Journal of Psychiatry published a paper that claimed trans adults were helped by transition. After complaints from readers, the data was reanalysed and a correction had to be made.

https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2020.1778correction

the results demonstrated no advantage of surgery in relation to subsequent mood or anxiety disorder-related health care visits or prescriptions or hospitalizations following suicide attempts in that comparison.

Overall, the evidence that medical transition helps anyone - adults or children - is very low. It’s fine to say that for adults they should be free to do whatever they want. But it raises serious ethical questions for medical professionals: can a doctor ethically undertake treatment on a patient, even if that patient is fully consenting, if they know that treatment will not help the patient, and possibly harm them?

The answer should be a difficult one. But we know there are individual doctors who wouldn’t think twice nor pause to question their decision and just crack on. But as a profession and a society, we absolutely need to discuss it. Because doctors are taking people with one condition (both simultaneously a medical condition needing intervention and not a medical condition 🤨) and turning them into people with another condition - a patient for life with doctor-induced disease. It’s remarkable that people like Joss Prior (who started all this) and LOJ et al aren’t mature enough to acknowledge the real harms from medical transition, even if they’re convinced of the benefits. They do real people whose lives are still finding their way a huge disservice.

Well it's not necessarily a question of what people believe. It's the difficulty in defining what transgender actually is. Because it seems to be the go to solution to all sorts of disperate problems that are not related.

So let's ask another question, then.

You asked if everyone believes it's a medical problem? As if you don't think that?

My question to you is, what do you believe it is?

But when the patient demands to completely control the treatment?

There is no truly equivalent perspective in any other area of medicine is there?

People do not always speak as precisly in a conversation as in writing. Almost no one does, and I don't think it's reasonable to tear apart sentences in isolation from the rest of a discussion.

The fact is there is zero evidence there is some kind of innate trans person. Body dysphoria is a medical, mental health problem. Having to go in for body modification to alleviate it is a poor outcome.

Even just talking about something like wearing certain clothes - this is also not great. A healthy adult may prefer to wear some clothing rather than others, but they are not going to be destabilized by wearing something that doesn't fit with their sense of who they are. That is a sign of a mental health problem. It's why to a large extent in everyday life, most adults don't feel the need to wear clothing or present themselves in a way that is very different than anyone else in their workplace or community or school. They might have preferences, and it can be nice for them to express them to some extent, but almost no one does all the time and people do not find that challenging to their sense of self.

There is something wrong when there is so much emphasis on social presentation in order to validate sense of self.

‘But there is no cure for, e.g. Down's syndrome. You wouldn't put trans people in that category then, presumably?’

Well, obviously not, no. That’s a chromosomal variation, isn’t it? But again, to what extent should we regard it as something to be corrected? They’re difficult questions.