So disgusted tonight

‘Natural diversity of what?’

This. What is gender, and between which two sites (whether physical/psychological) is the incongruity?

Just quoting myself.

I meant to add that feminists spend a lot of the time trying to eliminate homophobia, lesbiphobia and misogyny.

Not accommodate it.

Gender incongruence is the manifestation of natural diversity.

Natural diversity of what?

Most people understand that internal and external homophobia might make an effeminate gay man feel more comfortable presenting as a woman. The same for butch lesbians.

Also there are certainly very few women on here who don't understand how men can fetishise women's oppression. Five minutes on this board makes it quite clear that men can fetishise anything.

Also the massive over representation of children with autism has also been explained by pointing out that those children don't feel they fit in, and that transitioning to the opposite sex might feel like a solution

I have no doubt missed some reasons to transition, though.

Can anyone let me know what they are?

‘I think it was incredibly poorly expressed and should be explained much more clearly. I struggle to think Joyce is transphobic, I understand the explanations being given here, but I believe her wording was deeply offensive.’

Can you explain exactly why? This isn’t snark. I’m trying to understand what you think being trans actually is.

I think it was incredibly poorly expressed and should be explained much more clearly. I struggle to think Joyce is transphobic, I understand the explanations being given here, but I believe her wording was deeply offensive.

Datun has nailed it.

The difference being that I think a butch lesbian should be able to be a butch lesbian, but trans ideology wants them to have hormones and a double mastectomy?

perhaps you could tell me why a butch lesbian might think they're man and then tell me who's doing the pathologising?

Or (because some people say it’s about this) the body and the brain? As in some people have a male body but a physically female brain?

These posts show what I mean above: I don’t understand what is being claimed.

‘Gender dysphoria is the medicalised dissonance between the naturally innate incongruence, and the binary man-made society.’

What about the ‘incongruence’ is ‘innate?’

And what is the ‘incongruence’ between? What and what? The body and the expectations people have of what that body should wear?

Or the body and the desired body?

Isn't it the people who are insisting that trans people require opposite sex hormones and surgery the ones who are pathologising trans people? Medical treatment is normally only used on people who are unwell or who have a medical condition.

Gender dysphoria is the medicalised dissonance between the naturally innate incongruence, and the binary man-made society.

Point out specifically where the two are being confused by posters, was what I meant.

It is, isn't it? And yet we must be chastised, so take it on the chin, like a good girl!

‘There is a lot of people mixing up gender incongruence and gender dysphoria on this thread.’

Am I right in saying the difference is that you can perceive yourself to have a gender that is incongruent with your sex without the distress (that is, what they call dysphoria)?

And if so, is that quantitatively different to just wanting to wear feminine clothing when you are male, or wanting to wear masculine clothing when you are female?

Well it could be said about any group of people with dysphoria about themselves. You don't seem to grasp the point apart from seeing it as an opportunity to lamely make digs at women here, how surprising.

Gender incongruence is the manifestation of natural diversity.

Gender dysphoria is the medicalised dissonance between the naturally innate incongruence, and the binary man-made society.

Gender incongruence is innate, gender dysphoria isn't.

Gender incongruence refers to an individual's discontent with their assigned gender and the identification with a gender other than that of their birth sex. The ‘dysphoria’ relates to the distress and unease experienced.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1751722220301554

Why do you think the distinction between gender incongruence and gender dysphoria is so important? The above quote indicates that they're both part of the same condition.

The same could be said for the Gender-critical groups.

There is a lot of people mixing up gender incongruence and gender dysphoria on this thread.

It would help if people looking to pathologize trans people could learn the difference.

How will they learn the difference and understand what you mean, unless you explain it? Or don't you want to educate us?

Why is saying something is a mental illness completely beyond the pale? Some people, regardless of personal gender identity, do undoubtedly have mental illnesses and personality disorders, don't they? What about them?

The rhetoric by Helen Joyce was undeniably abusive and transphobic, it weakens the credibility of everybody who pretends otherwise.

There is a lot of people mixing up gender incongruence and gender dysphoria on this thread.

It would help if people looking to pathologize trans people could learn the difference.

It’s interesting just how many excuses will be made, how many knots people will twist themselves up in to deny the reality that what they said was really quite transphobic.

To answer your question. What do I think it actually is? I think it's similar to homosexuality in that it resides in physical differences in the brain. We know far too little about the brain to confidently say how trans individuals differ from staight ones, gay ones, autistic ones or anything else. But the preliminary studies I've looked at do seem to show some differences. I don't have studies to hand as it's a while since I researched all this.

But that's just your personal view, one theory, and as you acknowledge, you don't really have anything to back it up with that you can cite.

But if people here think being trans is a mental illness, a medical problem or a lifestyle choice, then this isn't the place for me.

They know they are of the sex their gentitalia suggests. But that makes them very unhappy because they don't feel whichever sex it is.

But why is this not a mental illness and what is it about the brain that supposedly results from "physical differences in the brain" that is not a mental illness? The difference between this and homosexuality is that the former does not require medical intervention but 'being trans' somehow does and yet it is not an illness?