So disgusted tonight

I suppose gender identity is seen as sacrosanct, immutable, presumably somehow akin to a 'soul'. Whereas the body is merely a mute meat-suit. Transhumanism, etc.

I suppose the tenet of genderism is that people are born with the brain in the wrong body; the 'cure' is seen as fixing that body by whatever means possible - attempting to change one's sex. The idea that one could attempt to treat the brain is heresy. (see 'conversion therapy').

It’s fine if someone doesn’t believe there’s anything wrong with them and they want to alter their bodies. I accept that and I accept them. I will not lie for them.

No, I don't think you can force a cure or treatment on anyone. But it's interesting to note that it's not even desired by many. they don't even appear to understand the concept.

The treatment has to be in the shape of things like the grimly euphemistic 'titty skittles'. Not, examining the reasons for transition in the first place and attempting to address the cause.

Because of course, what is so evident, is we are talking about different reasons for transition. Transition is just a generic umbrella term for the state of being to counter (or accommodate) separate and wildly disparate conditions.

And if the Helens have done nothing else, they have at least opened up the discussion into what those are.

Yes I agree with Tabby. Everyone has the right to refuse medical treatment. But people in authority should stop giving these people the false idea that the entire world is going to bend to accommodate their personal beliefs that sex doesn't affect our lives and doesn't need to be taken into consideration. They will keep pushing the boundaries, because it is psychological and all about power and control. Eventually they will have to be told by society as a whole that no, that's not how it works.

Personally I don’t agree with mandatory cures for anything. If you have a broken leg and want to keep it that way, it’s your decision at the end of the day. Just don’t demand I say humans are a race of people with either one or two entire legs.

Gender dysphoria is so dreadful, that a liberal sprinkling of egg shells needs to proceed your every step when you're around it. But a cure? Nah, you're alright

YY.

Opps , pressed post too soon.

My reply was that a cure should be mandatory and the only course of treatment available.

Gender dysphoria is so dreadful, that a liberal sprinkling of egg shells needs to proceed your every step when you're around it. But a cure? Nah, you're alright.

Indeed. Nothing about the movement is known for its logic, is it!

Gender dysphoria is so dreadful, that a liberal sprinkling of egg shells needs to proceed your every step when you're around it. But a cure? Nah, you're alright.

That is because the logic of trans activism wants to have its cake and eat it @Datun. It wants us to accept that being trans is all suffering and being burdened with a condition you were born with, and it isn’t a choice, so everyone has to understand and accommodate it. It also wants us to accept that being trans is so wonderful and actualising that nobody should ever worry about or try to help them, because we can’t possibly understand.

I’m afraid I don’t think it can be both.

As it's difficult to tell the difference between people with dysphoria and men who've claimed dysphoria to seize the opportunity to get one over on women, I don't think I'm going to be able to go along with that, spaceghost.

I've asked quite a few trans people/activists whether they would like to see a cure for gender dysphoria.

i've had various answers. Quite often they don't appear to understand the question. Which was interesting.

No one has said yes though. And of course, as I said, we're not seeing a big push, or any kind of push at all, to fund research into it and find a cure/cause.

I can readily believe that that is because the number of people who have genuine gender dysphoria is minuscule.

This is the crux of the issue. Is gender dysphoria an identity or an illness? I lean towards the latter view.

If I remember rightly Janet believes she and MTF trans people share an ineffable sense of womaniness that many posters doubt the existence of.

I’d like Janet to tell us how ‘sane society’ should accept males competing in female sports categories.

What is sane about the fact that we now have MP’s like Nandy saying males should be accommodated in female prisons and males competing in female sports categories?

What is sane about authors of the Dutch Protocol saying ‘there is a problem with this treatment and the current cohort of young female transitioners’ and that author being ignored?

The fact there are issues and discussion around them is being called transphobic and hateful is a problem for sane society. Because society progresses through discussion and debate. All ‘no debate’ ever does is push the debate along the timeline.

These issues are serious enough that they will persist and ‘society’ will address it, eventually.

Look at France and laws passed there in the name of progression in the 70s and the harm it has done and that took 40-50 years to come to light due to power and fear. But the discussion was had and the laws were changed.

I think we all know what ‘feels like a woman’ means really. It means desire to be a woman based on how some women look (let’s face it - they desire to be women tbeg find desirable). Which is fine. Except you can’t be a woman unless you’re female, and you can’t know how to be what you are not. You can speculate (just like I can speculate about what it might feel like to be a member of a different racial or ethnic group), but you can’t jump inside someone else’s mind and know what is like to be them. And I am not going to pretend anyone can.

If I remember rightly Janet believes she and MTF trans people share an ineffable sense of womaniness that many posters doubt the existence of.

How they would know what feeling like a woman feels like as males has never been answered across many threads, but somehow they just do, like she just does.

Yes. But that isn’t what is happening though.

If you're not trans though, how do you have any idea what it's like?

Bingo House Eureka No Shit Sherlock!

How come that makes sense to you @GoodJanetBadJanet ? Because if we switched a single word you would be up in arms about transohobia, erasure, being mean etc

If you're not female though, how do you have any idea what it's like?

That's the whole fucking point!

@Datun

I can’t say you’re wrong. Because you’re not.

I'm afraid this is far, far too logical.

Poor body image? That's not what we're being told.

That's why we are accommodating rapists in women's prisons? Because they have a poor body image?

I mean it's an answer to the question. Absolutely. What are the reasons people transition?

But it's pretty shocking, if that's the case, isn't it?

Changing laws, ruining women's sports, subjecting incarcerated women to sex offenders, censoring, cancelling and de-platforming people everywhere and controlling their language.

Purely because a handful of men have a poor body image?

I think the answer was word salad.

The 'genocide' argument is pure hyperbole.

Absolutely no one on the gender critical side is calling for murder or violence - unlike their opponents.

It's certainly true that transition should be approached with extreme caution, given its irreversible effects and the fact that genderism is now a fad sweeping schools and universities, picking up vulnerable young people.

It's also true that if someone feels their brain is in the wrong body, and they need radical surgery to correct it, and the world needs to bend its own perspective to accommodate their personal reality - that person is damaged.

Personally I believe transition should go ahead in those rare cases where it's the only solution to this psychological condition. But while these people should be treated with kindness and tolerance, the rest of the world shouldn't be forced to deny reality at every turn, or warp itself to support magical thinking. That means it should always be possible, if needed, to point out a person's true sex, and treat people according to their sex, not 'gender identity '. For example in sports, crime reporting, prisons etc. And the teaching of genderism in schools must absolutely stop.