So disgusted tonight

So no, I don't want to see a cure for being trans because a) there isn't one since b) believing there could be, fundamentally misunderstands what being trans means.

Or do you wish you had a penis and testicles? Do you hate looking at yourself in the mirror because you don't have broad shoulders and narrow hips? Do you loathe mestruating because it;s a monthly reminder of your sex? Do you wish you could grow a beard? Do you long to be accepted as a man by other men? Do you feel as if you are, actually, a man and your body betrays you? If so you have the gender man.

ChristabelHolloway

But this is just confused. Someone yearning to be the opposite sex is in thrall to gender stereotypes. Otherwise yearning
to be the opposite sex, for no reason whatsoever, is a mental health issue.

The gender critical position is that people are both in thrall to, and constrained by, gender stereotypes.

We had a transwoman on here who said they couldn't feel 'vibrant' unless they presented as a woman, for instance. Another one said they wanted to be one of the mean girls
in Hollywood movies. Another wanted to be described as a hot mess, when they rocked up to have coffee.

These things are nothing to do with actually being a woman.

Do you relate to other women as in some way like you, and in a way that men are not?

Yes. Other women. I do not relate to men who identify as women as being in any way like me and I most certainly do not share a "gender identity" with them. If it's all about identifying with a "gender" then I'm adult human female gender and my gender identity excludes all adult human males, and my gender identity is just as valid as anyone else's gender identity.

On the two different interpretations of what being transgender means:

I have spent a lot of time reading online to get a better understanding about this, by finding out what transgender individuals and detransitioners write about themselves.

The best summary of what I have learned is that there are many different interpretations about the underlying reasons why someone feels unhappy with their biological sex or with the way people of their biological sex are socially treated.

Many describe gender dysphoria which agonising and relentless, but not by no means all. Some have dysphoria only about the secondary sexual characteristics of their body or only about, say, their breasts or their genitals, while others have only what they call social dysphoria (feeling bad when others sex them correctly, hating the gender stereotypes assigned to their sex by this crappy world etc.)

Some have both, while others state that they never suffered from gender dysphoria, but only felt gender euphoria when first dressing or behaving as they interpret the other sex to do. Some who transition develop 'reverse' gender dysphoria, many find their dysphoria reduced by transition but some do not, and for some desisters the dysphoria resolves itself in early adulthood.

There are transgender people who define the reason why they are trans as a medical condition, while others view it as having a mismatch between their gender identities and their bodies. There are also transgender people who don't even accept the idea of an abstract gender identity but use different theoretical frameworks to explain their decision (such as the belief that life is much easier for the other sex).

These could, of course, be different symptoms for the same underlying reason. But perhaps different people base their trans or nonbinary identities on quite different bases? If that is the case, it is unlikely that one single solution would work.

It would be good if researchers were able to study all this, because it would improve the lives of transgender people in all sorts of important ways.

I would really like it if people arguing the "trans rights" case could somehow make their argument stand up on its own without referring to homosexuals.

I mean, what the hell is the below? Other than a non sequitur/ ad hominem/stolen valor salad? What does self-ID have to do with gay people? No one's demanding that gay people change their ID; it would be very, very worrying if they were.

One of the few advantages of self ID is that it removes this stigmatizing diagnosis. Or perhaps you still think being gay can be "cured"??

It is only nothing to do with having a female body in the sense that it doesn't define physical sex. It has everything to do with it psychologically.

How about considering how this relates to you personally?

Do you think/believe you are a woman? Do you relate to other women as in some way like you, and in a way that men are not? Are you reasonably happy with your body, especially the sexual parts of it? If so you have the gender woman

Or do you wish you had a penis and testicles? Do you hate looking at yourself in the mirror because you don't have broad shoulders and narrow hips? Do you loathe mestruating because it;s a monthly reminder of your sex? Do you wish you could grow a beard? Do you long to be accepted as a man by other men? Do you feel as if you are, actually, a man and your body betrays you? If so you have the gender man.

Look, I'm not expert here, but it's not that difficult to understand is it?

So no, I don't want to see a cure for being trans because a) there isn't one since b) believing there could be, fundamentally misunderstands what being trans means.

Which is...?

What fundamentally is being trans?

You can refer to both ends of my spectrum mentioned earlier, if you want to. To give it some context.

Also, what is the word you use for those women, the old fashioned ones, not the ones with penises?

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/conditions/gender-dysphoria

Is there debate around the diagnosis of gender dysphoria?

Some psychologists and activists believe that the diagnosis of gender dysphoria should be removed from the DSM because being transgender is a social identity rather than a mental illness, that the label may contribute to stigma towards trans people, and that the diagnosis echoes the previous classification of homosexuality as a mental disorder.

The World Health Organization, for example, maintains a diagnostic manual called the International Classification of Diseases. In 2018, the organization removed the mental disorder “gender identity disorder” and included “gender incongruence” in the sexual health section instead.

Gender dysphoria is a potentially discriminatory diagnosis that harks back to an era where we knew far less about the brain and considered e.g. homosexuality as an mental disorder that could be "cured". One of the few advantages of self ID is that it removes this stigmatizing diagnosis. Or perhaps you still think being gay can be "cured"??

Fortunately, * *homosexuals no longer suffer this kind of cruel treatment. I sincerely hope it isn't long before the DSM is updated to show a more current understanding of what is and isn't a mental illness.

So no, I don't want to see a cure for being trans because a) there isn't one since b) believing there could be, fundamentally misunderstands what being trans means.

And this is why there's a real problem with the attitude of many posters here. Essentially, you believe that being trans is optional. Either people can be fixed, or they can just choose to stop. This. Is Not. True.

I'm not for a moment saying that woman gender identity includes anything stereotypically "feminine".

So what is a woman gender identity? How would I know if I have a woman gender identity or a man gender identity or a nonbinary gender identity (or one of the other 100s of gender identities which we are told exist).

If a woman gender identity is nothing to do with femininity or having a female body, what is it?

I'll answer ...

A woman is an adult human female. The "female" refers to basic reproductive biology and includes things like having xx chromosomes and having the physical organs and hormones needed to conceive, gestate, birth and feed a baby. Virtually all women possess at least some of these attributes. (Presumably adult and human don't need defining here.)

This is an age-old and traditional answer. Today of course, legally a woman can be a physical male who has had their birth certificate changed. Or someone with a gender recognition certificate. Or in some cases, anyone who says they are a woman. No wonder politicians are so reluctant to answer the question "what is a woman?" Anyway, if you accept these definitions of "woman" then of course my view is redundant, but on this basis I don't think a meaningful definition is possible.

As well as sex, we have gender. A woman may have a gender identity that is congruent with her sex - i.e. she "feels" she is a woman. Or, she may have the opposite gender identity, i.e. she "feels" like a man. In this second case she is a trans man.

So we have women = female sex + woman gender identity, and we have trans women = male sex + woman gender identity. What they have in common is that they feel like/believe themselves to be/want to be women. What divides them into two groups is their biology.

The commonality between women and trans women is their gender identity.

I don't believe I have used any stereotypes here. I'm not for a moment saying that woman gender identity includes anything stereotypically "feminine".

Does this answer your question?

OK, fair enough. It's perhaps not always clear what we should take 'trans' to mean.

It is a spectrum. From someone who used to be 'tru trans' [or 'truscum as the trans people call them] who actually had a diagnosis, and drugs, and operations...through to a man who declared he was trans just before he was due to be exposed for having a car crash and he needed some 'get out of jail free tokens'.

It is literally whatever the person saying it means. It is random, and can be a feeling, a constellation, a mental health break, a ftsh, and basically anything that it wants to be. And of course some people because they can see souls and not necessarily male bodies, if Layla Moran is looking at them, they may not even know that they even are trans.

But question any of it and you are evil, bigoted and due for hanging at 9am tomorrow. Like every good witch.

Hope that sorts it out for you. Clear as mud.

@GoodJanetBadJanet

Would you ask people who are gay if they wanted to be "cured" if they could?No, I'm guessing of course not, so why is it OK for you to if they're trans? Are they fair game or something?

Being gay = being sexually attracted to the opposite sex. A set definition which doesn't involve any stereotypes and is a commonality between all gay people.

Being a transwoman = feeling you are a woman.

So a question for you - what is a woman?

Can you answer that without using stereotypes?

Can you answer that by confirming a commonality between women and transwomen that doesn't require stereotypes that don't apply to all women?

Interested to hear your answers.

I have asked this question in good faith so many times to do many people and never ever has one of them given an answer. I genuinely want to understand their viewpoint but they are unwilling or unable to answer it.

Here's hoping this poster or someone else will be the first!

OK, fair enough. It's perhaps not always clear what we should take 'trans' to mean. My analysis strikes at those who sincerely think their sex is other than their birth (ie real, some might say) sex.

A little more?

'Does he just want to be a woman?' - I suppose we might take this either of two ways: (1) he wants to be a woman (and knows this is impossible); (2) he wants to be a woman (and sees this as a possibility).

Case (2) is another mistake. Revenons ...

Case (1)? - I suppose matters will depend on the extent to which the desire causes its holder problems. Many people would like impossible things to be true, in a sense, - 'I wish I'd never left her ...' (changing the past? ... And so on ...) But mostly such desires need no ameliorative response further than realisation of the truth; 'But I can't change the past.' ... ('But I can't change sex'?). In certain cases, more might be required, up to psychiatric help I suppose.

In any case, me wanting something I know to be impossible seems unlikely of assimilation to me being gay. So T remains separate from LGB in this case, and a fortiori in the 'mistake' case (2).

Will that do?

Am I allowed to post this link?

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

That does make it very difficult to discuss real conversations had. My previous post should have included a sentence on that, but I refrained...

One explanation for the two different models of transness is Ray Blanchard's.

He is a respected voice in the field but we risk deletion if we attempt to discuss his work here.

However, if I think I am a woman, I am mistaken. No question, and why? - Because {men} and {women} are discrete (sets); no man is a woman, no woman is a man. That's in the nature of what a man (or woman) is, or if you prefer, that's part of the meaning of 'man' (and 'woman'). And, if I, a man, think I am a woman, I am trans.

See now? To sincerely say one is gay is to be gay; to sincerely say one is trans is to be mistaken.

But does a man who is trans think he is a woman, or does he just want to be a woman?

That doesn’t mean that the condition doesn’t exist.
As for what causes it, I don’t think anyone knows but again that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.

I don't think anyone has said that the condition gender dysphoria doesn't exist. But society needs to manage it as a health issue, because people find it distressing from a mental health perspective. So accommodations need to be found for dealing with the people who have it, in ways other than pretending it's possible to be considered a member of the opposite sex in every single way.

GoodJanetBadJanet · Today (5/6/22) 11:43
"Would you ask people who are gay if they wanted to be "cured" if they could?
No, I'm guessing of course not, so why is it OK for you to if they're trans? Are they fair game or something?"

[Others have dealt with this, possibly more clearly than me. Here is my explanation, fwiw.]

This idea that gay and trans are similar comes up again and again. It is a canard. ( Sc. 'an extravagant or absurd story circulated to deceive the credulous,' as OED pithily puts it.)

Here's why.

Suppose I am a man:

If I think I am attracted to other men, I am gay. No question, and why? - Because to think I am attracted to men is to be attracted to men. That's in the nature of what attraction is, or if you prefer, that's part of the meaning of 'attraction'. And, if I, a man, am attracted to men, I am gay.

However, if I think I am a woman, I am mistaken. No question, and why? - Because {men} and {women} are discrete (sets); no man is a woman, no woman is a man. That's in the nature of what a man (or woman) is, or if you prefer, that's part of the meaning of 'man' (and 'woman'). And, if I, a man, think I am a woman, I am trans.

See now? To sincerely say one is gay is to be gay; to sincerely say one is trans is to be mistaken.

This, now, is a distinction that might well make a difference, particularly as regards desirability of ameliorative treatment. No?

How difficult is this to understand? Too difficult for Owen Jones, clearly. GoodJanetBadJanet ? Who knows? But, well, in any case it is clear - is it not? - that T just does not belong with L, Gand B.

I have a.quite detailed answer to that upthread @AlisonDonut It wasn't even acknowledged. As is par for the course when confronted by a logical answer, an answer that includes compassion for those I, as a GC woman, am supposed to hate, there never is a direct response. Inconvenient and irksome, I suppose.

Well, they are difficult as nobody can actually define what it is they have, what it is they want and anything other than complete capitulation to anything they demand results in tantrums.

I'd say it was an extremely inciteful take, bearing in mind anyone that tries to have a reasoned discussion is jumped on and accused of wanting genocide.

why is it OK for you to if they're trans? Are they fair game or something

In my case it's OK for me to ask all sorts of invasive questions as to have known them for almost 40 years and was their post surgery support human. I've asked lots of invasive questions over the years and, specifically to my friends, have never had a consistent answer. Why would there be one? Being trans is who they are. The dysmorphia is horrendous, something that remains even after all the surgery possible. That wouldn't be missed... except it is what moulded them as adults, is core to who they are. Would they lose the mental health issues? Yes. Would they lose their personality, their loved ones, friends, settled life? No.

Much the same as anyone else really.

But these specific trans people are not TRAs and don't find the idea of making the initial stages of transitioning slower, less medicalised, more psychological. That is what they wanted, back in the 80s and 90s, and is what they continue to access, when needed, now, in their late 50s and 60s.

As for why people say that they wouldn’t want to be cured, that’s not necessarily confined to trans people. I have been diagnosed with autism as an adult. It has caused me various problems and distress throughout my life. Yet if you asked me if I want to be ‘cured’, ie neurotypical, I wouldn’t necessarily say yes (in fact, I probably wouldn’t). It’s who I am. Therefore, I can imagine that even someone who suffers from something quite debilitating would say that they are not looking for a cure - they just want to live in the way that they wish as the person that they think they are. That doesn’t mean that the condition doesn’t exist.
As for what causes it, I don’t think anyone knows but again that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.

This.

I really would like someone to actually talk through this because it's just such contradictory nonsense to me, and when people like Helen Joyce do try and bring it up they are accused of inciting 'genocide' and all sorts of bollocks.

But being gay doesnt require you to chop off your tits and have a potential lifetime of bone density issues? There is simply no comparison?

There is lots of talk on Twitter comparing what Helen Joyce said to 'imagine if this was said about disabled people'.

So is being trans compared to being disabled....or to being gay?

Make it make sense!

Crispin Blunt, that odious MP who supported the sex abuser MP Imran Ahmad Khan, was very open about the [shelved] reform of the GRA being stitched up behind closed doors, wasn't he?

He was. His LGBT parliamentary group had made a secret pro TRA report which he assumed would be used in the decision making behind closed doors, as you say. He was very offended that it was disregarded.