So disgusted tonight

I understand why posters on here are unhappy about the effect trans activists and the imposition of trans rights are having on sex-based female rights, on the medical transitioning of people under 18, on the destruction of women's sports and so on. I share these concerns.

What I don't share is the pervasive dislike, distrust and hostility towards trans people. Trans individuals exist; they have always existed; and to those who ask why I compare their situation with that of gay people, it's because the latter were also subject to the kind of hostility and hatred shown here, until very recently.

The vast majority of posters here appear to have no genuine interest in understanding trans people and why they are the way they are. I do have such an interest. I know trans people, I'm closely related to one, and I've sought to empathise with them and understand them as much as I think is possible for a non-trans person. Can you say the same?

But you don't need to do that. You already know you're right. There's no such thing as gender. Being trans can be cured, or it's a mental illness, or it's the result of trauma, or it's a fetish. Trans people "threaten rape and murder at any women who deviates, even slightly, from their orders to capitulate to male dominance." Oh and of course that's not transphobic at all.

It can't possibly be that some people genuinely are trans, and it's just the way they are, can it? Because that would be ... weird? Because that's not how you experience the world? Because .... I really have no idea why a lot of you think this way, but I don't like it.

Most of the responses to my last post have misrepresented it, misunderstood it (and I think my writing is pretty clear) or just ignored the points I made. Well, that's your right of course. But I can't be bothered to reply to you if you're going to do that.

I feel sad. I did think it would possible to find people who opposed the harm done to women's rights by extremist trans activists but didn't hate or fear ordinary trans people, who in general are as dismayed by what's happening as anyone else. I sure haven't found those people here.

Wish me luck as I continue the search elsewhere. Oh and P.s. I watched all of the Helen Joyce interview on Wine and Women, and what she said was transphobic. Which is where we all came in.

Quite. Yes that's neatly put.

And notice, too, that really there is no such thing as 'age identity' in that (purported) sense.

Likewise, there is no such thing as gender identity.

Notice the point here is not that some people may have gender identities while others don't. No, the fact of the matter is that there is no such thing as gender identity in anything like the required sense.

No-one - nobody at all - has a gender identity in that sense. We know that because there is no such thing, just as we know no-one has one of tabbycatstripy's age identities.

The whole trans edifice is built on sand. Tough for all you inhabitants of this edifice ... but you surely must have noticed the walls shaking and the floors trembling now and then. No? Surely?

‘You know, the idea of yearning to be the opposite sex because that's definitely how you feel, think, are, in some metaphysical, indefinable way, might carry a little more weight...’

It will only ever carry weight with me in the same way that I respect anyone’s feelings. I will not accept the feeling as having any basis in truth until someone shows me some objective basis for it.

You know, the idea of yearning to be the opposite sex because that's definitely how you feel, think, are, in some metaphysical, indefinable way, might carry a little more weight, if the same people didn't threaten rape and murder at any women who deviates, even slightly, from their orders to capitulate to male dominance.

I mean, as the saying goes, I might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night.

The whole thing involving men who claim they are not men, that they "feel" they are a woman, is rooted in sexual fantasy, often encouraged by frequent or addictive viewing of specific "genres" of pornography. It is an expression of the sexual fetish that is autogynephilia. [Although we are not supposed to say "sexual fetish" anymore, we're told to say "paraphilia".

How does anyone who isn't a woman know how it is to 'feel like' a woman? Other than various biological bodily processes, I don't think I have any clue what part of my thought processes/personality/subjective experience is 'like a woman'. Unless you want to reference various dubious & reductive stereotypes.

This is how I feel too.

And I appreciate posters who try to answer questions about this but fundamentally it all comes back to this.

And I haven't yet seen an answer that doesn't rely on stereotypes.

The previous poster said they hadn't relied on stereotypes but their answer was simply that someone feels their gender identity is 'woman', without explaining what that feeling is rooted in. It cannot be rooted in experience as a male bodied person cannot know what it feels like to have grown up as a girl and lived as a woman.

It isn't an answer to the question because an actual answer would have to rely on stereotypes if it can't rely on biology or demonstrable fact.

And I'm a bit sick of the whole 'don't you believe gay people are gay?' and 'if you support gay people why don't you support TWAW?' Etc. Being gay = being attracted to the opposite sex. A clear, defined fact.

Feeling like you are a woman = what exactly, without using stereotypes that don't even apply to all women?

I'm a woman. I don't like lots of things that are considered feminine. I like some things that are traditionally considered masculine. I am still a woman because whether or not I adhere to gender stereotypes doesn't change that fact.

If we are teaching people that if they tick more boxes in the stereotypes of the sex opposite to theirs, they are trans, we are doing them a disservice and not allowing them to be their whole, brilliant selves without needing to label themselves as the opposite sex.

Do you think/believe you are a woman?

Yes because a woman is an adult human female and that's what I am.

Do you relate to other women as in some way like you, and in a way that men are not?

Yes I relate to other adult human females as having commonality with me biologically, whereas men do not share that biology.

I don't believe I have used any stereotypes here. I'm not for a moment saying that woman gender identity includes anything stereotypically "feminine".

Thank you for answering.

If not using stereotypes, what are the markers of a female gender identity?

I’m not thrilled with my body but it doesn’t cause me sex-based distress. My boobs are saggy (two kids, too much cake) but if they weren’t I’d be very happy with them. I’d like to be taller but not the size of a typical man.

So I get that gender dysphoria is a specific thing. It would be better labelled sex dysphoria. But be that as it may, having it just makes you someone who dislikes being the sex you are. Nothing to do with being the other one.

“Do you think/believe you are a woman? Do you relate to other women as in some way like you, and in a way that men are not? Are you reasonably happy with your body, especially the sexual parts of it? If so you have the gender woman”

I know I am a woman and that my sex is female because objectively I have a female body. I am unhappy with it. It is too short, fat, slow rapable used to bleed annoyingly and now in menopause causes me aches and pains.

I’m still female/a woman though. I recognise that those with similar bodies are female and those with cocks and balls are men.

This is biology. Just because we don’t like it does not mean it isn’t true.

Look, I'm not expert here, but it's not that difficult to understand is it?

I'm not sure why you have such a blind spot when you claim to be "GC". Gender is a social construct which differs over space and time, so playing football in the US is a girl thing and in the U.K. a boy thing (soccer, and I've heard it used in transition stories both ways depending on the country). Gender identity ideology is entirely founded in sex stereotypes. There is no evidence that this personal "gender" is an innate quality, other than that a group of people heavily influenced by stereotyped views of male and female claim to have one. But that isn't enough, we all have to have one, don't we?

Or do you wish you had a penis and testicles? Do you hate looking at yourself in the mirror because you don't have broad shoulders and narrow hips? Do you loathe mestruating because it;s a monthly reminder of your sex? Do you wish you could grow a beard? Do you long to be accepted as a man by other men? Do you feel as if you are, actually, a man and your body betrays you? If so you have the gender man.

For much of my life since puberty, a lot of that resonates. I hate being female, I used to bind my chest and fantasise about slicing my breasts off.I was subsequently diagnosed with body dysmorphia...the cure for which according to multiple male psychiatrists is standing naked in front of a mirror telling myself I'm beautiful. In fact the last one made a point of calling me beautiful on a regular basis despite knowing how much it bothered me. However I'm self aware enough to know in my case it comes from a place of trauma and because of that I think your answer is far too simplistic. I grew up being called jailbait and Lolita by my father's squadron and by the age of 14 had more than three grown men follow me home from school to ask me out. The first time I was hit on sexually I was in my brownie uniform. The power imbalance (no one stood up for me possibly due to military hierarchy) and the sense of woman as lesser were clear even in my early teens. Things like that have a lasting effect. Thirty years ago I'd have jumped to at the opportunity to get out of the walking sex toy box and into the human one.

Well, it would be great to hear someone answer it. It seems to me that the whole premise of genderism and transgenderism 'makes sense' so long as you are careful not to ask one too many questions. When we look for definitions of the words used, it all seems to fall apart.

I'd be happy to be proved wrong, though, and look forward to hearing what ChristabelHolloways answer is to:

'what is it to feel like a woman'?

By the way, Renee mentions a statistic whereby 50% of transitioned people attempt suicide after transition.

Not social influence. Not transphobia "Biological. Because you're messing with biology" - Renee's words.

Rest if population Renee says is 0.6 %.

But this is just confused. Someone yearning to be the opposite sex is in thrall to gender stereotypes. Otherwise yearning to be the opposite sex, for no reason whatsoever, is a mental health issue.

The gender critical position is that people are both in thrall to, and constrained by, gender stereotypes.

Exactly. The poster hasn't managed to explain why a male would have this mysterious, debatable, woman/female identity if it isn't about stereotypes of course it's about stereotypes

Posted on the other thread; is it any easier for people to accept when a transwoman of 40 years says the same thing? And has been saying for some time now. From 2017

www.google.co.uk/search?q=rene+jax+youtube&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:37ea102f,vid:lN0sT6bHjR8,st:0

‘The commonality between women and trans women is their gender identity.’

Which would be exactly the same as me saying I think I’m a fifteen year old and then trying to set up an umbrella category by saying the commonality between me and an actual fifteen year old is our ‘age identity’.

Of course we know some people think they are female (when they’re not). Yes, they hold that in common with female people who know what sex they are.

That doesn’t make a meaningful social category. It makes them wrong.

What is it to 'feel like a woman'?

This. The question is asked a million times online, and answered very rarely. Most of the answers rely on sexist stereotypes about femininity or a presumed preference for the female role in the traditional sexual division of labour.

I am a woman and yet I have no idea what it feels like, because I could only tell you if I was also allowed to live for some time as a man and perhaps then as non-binary, and then do comparisons.

I only know what it feels like to be me, and most of the time that doesn't appear to have anything to do with being female or with having the social gender 'woman.'

they feel like/believe themselves to be/want to be women

How does anyone who isn't a woman know how it is to 'feel like' a woman? Other than various biological bodily processes, I don't think I have any clue what part of my thought processes/personality/subjective experience is 'like a woman'. Unless you want to reference various dubious & reductive stereotypes.

'believe themselves to be', yes, but if they are male they are not a woman, belief doesn't really come into it. Anorexics believe themselves to be grossly overweight despite being dangerously thin. We don't encourage them to diet. And we've mentioned 'trans-abled' people on this thread, I think. Sometimes belief does not accord with reality - if someone's sincerely held belief is that they are possessed by demons we mostly don't affirm that.

'want to be' - well, you know, see above.

So we have women = female sex + woman gender identity, and we have trans women = male sex + woman gender identity. What they have in common is that they feel like/believe themselves to be/want to be women. What divides them into two groups is their biology.

The commonality between women and trans women is their gender identity.

Thanks for having a go at explaining this.

What is it to 'feel like a woman'?

Wishing to have tits and a fanny doesn’t magically make a male into a female. I wish I had wings and it doesn’t make me a chicken.

Perhaps they should watch a bit more of the two Helens. Just after the bit that they got all upset about, Helen Joyce talks about how transing young boys is very popular amongst homophobic parents who would rather have a sterile 'daughter' than a gay son.

Do you think/believe you are a woman?

I know I'm a woman because I have a female body.

Do you relate to other women as in some way like you, and in a way that men are not?

Yes. Other women also have female bodies.

Are you reasonably happy with your body, especially the sexual parts of it?

Not sure what you're getting at here? Are you asking whether I enjoy sex?

If so you have the gender woman

Or do you wish you had a penis and testicles?

I've often wished I had a penis when I've been travelling. It would be nice not to have to get so close to some of the very disgusting toilets I've encountered, or be able to pee anywhere without having to find a hedge or something to hide behind.

Do you hate looking at yourself in the mirror because you don't have broad shoulders and narrow hips?

Broad shoulders would probably = more upper body strength. Could definitely do with some of that. And as a (very) pear shaped woman, I've often wished my hips were a bit narrower.

Do you loathe mestruating because it;s a monthly reminder of your sex?

All in the past now, thankfully. But anaemia, flooding and pain - could definitely have done without all that.

Do you wish you could grow a beard? Do you long to be accepted as a man by other men?

In my last job, I worked for a man whose sexism was off the scale. He treated female employees very much as second class citizens. People like him treating me as a man would definitely have been an improvement.

Do you feel as if you are, actually, a man and your body betrays you? If so you have the gender man.

Look, I'm not expert here, but it's not that difficult to understand is it?

Isn't it? Do I have a man gender or a woman gender in your opinion?

Is being into BDSM a life choice? Is it something you're born with? Or is it something that happens to you along the way, perhaps by choice, perhaps not and is then tricky to reverse? I'm with column c.
I think being trans is very similar: column c for a lot of people and column b for a very few. I'm not saying being trans is identical to bdsm, but I do think it's comparable for a substantial group of heterosexual males and I do think that probably once you start wiring your brain into some kind of dopamine reward system, you're probably stuck with it.

Do you relate to other women as in some way like you, and in a way that men are not?

It's such an odd take. How do males think that actually being a woman, correlates in any way to being a man who doesn't want to be a man? Especially one who is trying to take over my sport, spaces, and areas where women are vulnerable

Again, it's like we're not really real.