So disgusted tonight

So what do you think 'genuine trans' is timeisnotaline?

In terms of similar roles in other cultures, it's my understanding that it applies to effeminate gay men who would actually take on roles expected of females. The acceptance of which would require a basis of sexism to make such a distinction possible.

Sort of uber stereotyping.

I’m jumping to the end of the thread to say hand on heart I do not believe anyone here (or anyone) is qualified to say there is no such thing as a genuine trans person. A role for people living as the opposite sex has been documented in numerous cultures for at least hundreds of years. Conversely, the ‘no evidence’ applies equally to complex conditions like fibromyalgia, and ‘trying to cure it’ applies to homosexuality. I do think there is considerable evidence both that not all young (including early 20s wirh todays ‘extended adolescence’) trans people are actually trans, that some trans people are agp or if that doesn’t really exist, something similar, and that some people eg criminals and rapists will exploit the option to be trans. This is quite different from saying there is no such thing as trans.
That video is very poor wording and I understand why it’s copping so much flak. Frankly it deserves criticism- I don’t know much about Helen Staniland but I hope Helen Joyce is regretting her phrasing. It would be great if she could share a clear statement on what she meant and honestly I think an apology is due for the phrasing used.

Are you talking about their post that was a list of questions about how I felt about my body? What does liking or disliking your body have to do with gender identity?

So to extrapolate, that post apparently claimed this is what it is to feel like a woman:

1 'thinking/believing you are a woman'.

2 'relating to other women'.

3 'being happy/comfortable with having a female body'.

The first two are circular definitions. 'feeling like a woman means thinking you are a woman means believing you are a woman means relating to other women'.

It comes down to 'gender identity is a vague, unquantifiable, indescribable feeling'.

The last statement is about one's feelings about having a female body. Most women have varied and changeable feelings about their bodies, in my experience, I'm really not sure there's a universally shared feeling among all women about being happy/unhappy with/in their body.

Or have I misunderstood? Happy to be corrected.

I've reread all the posts and this is the closest I can find to an answer to the question 'what is it to feel like a woman':

'Do you think/believe you are a woman? Do you relate to other women as in some way like you, and in a way that men are not? Are you reasonably happy with your body, especially the sexual parts of it? If so you have the gender woman'

'Do you think/believe you are a woman?

This is just answering the question with more questions. Thinking/believing you are a woman does not make you a woman.

Relating to other women as in some way like you

What is 'some way'? In what way? In the way I fry an egg? Or this answering the 'what does it feel like to be a woman' with 'how do you feel like a woman'? Which is not answering the question.

As for happy with the body bit, well I can appreciate that if I have no dysphoria over my sex I am not trans.

But my feelings about my body have absolutely no bearing on the embodied reality of my body.

Feelings, emotions and wishes and desires may be sincerely felt; this does not mean they are the equivalent of material reality.

Being trans - yearning to be a woman, is what I recall. Is that right GoodJanetBadJanet.

Is that the answer?

The posts are there

Just saying some words isn't actually an answer, it has to mean something coherent in relation to the question. As I said. And the poster doesn't wish to engage further on this question. How very surprising.

Oh, what was the answer, Janet?

Can you point it out, I must have missed it?

Question was : 'what is it to feel like a woman'?

Thanks.

I genuinely can't see where someone has given a definition of gender identity that isn't simply 'feeling like a woman', that doesn't rely on gender stereotypes.

If I've missed it please can you share it? This isn't snarky, I genuinely can't see the question answered in any way that doesn't rely on a 'feeling' or stereotypes.

You didn't actually make any point, as people have painstakingly explained to you. You did not give a coherent definition of gender identity that doesn't have any relation to male/female stereotypes
Yes, the poster did .
You pretend it hasn't been answered though (as usual.)
Same for others saying "nothing?no?
The posts are there, you don't even need to go back very fair at all - they're barely even a page away from your own comments!
Then you wonder why people don't engage.

Do I think I am a woman?

I was taught that was biological. If so, yea, if not I don't know what I am

Do I relate to females differently to how I relate to males

Nope. Why would I?

Am I happy with my body especially the sexed parts ?

Nope. Knees are a bit rubbish also.

But the world sees me as female , and some ( not nice ) people treat me differently as a result . I don't see why I should be treated differently and think that should stop

I'm closely related to one, and I've sought to empathise with them and understand them as much as I think is possible for a non-trans person. Can you say the same?

I know you aren't trans but I'm genuinely trying to understand the points you have been making. But you haven't answered what is a very direct question and then have basically accused me of being disingenuous.

And yes, I can say the same re trans people. The ones I know and love would confirm that to you! I can't understand why people believe in god but I respect their right to do so, I just don't expect them to insist I agree he exists. Likewise I can't understand why some people believe you can 'feel like a woman', but I respect their right to say they do, I just don't expect to be called disingenuous when I ask them to explain what 'feeling like a woman' means without using gender stereotypes.

As I said, nobody has ever answered that question without using gender stereotypes when I've asked it in an attempt to understand the point of view.

And you haven't answered it either. Your prerogative of course but if people are engaged in a conversation and ask direct questions but never get a direct answer, it's not them being disingenuous.

Do you think/believe you are a woman?

I know I am a woman because I am female.

Do you relate to other women as in some way like you, and in a way that men are not?

Yes I do, because they are also female. I don't relate to males in that way, regardless of their personal identity.

Are you reasonably happy with your body, especially the sexual parts of it?

Sometimes, sometimes not.

If so you have the gender woman

That's your ideology speaking. I don't believe in "gender" as distinct from sex. Gender is an external social construct. I am a member of the female sex. That is it.

I know trans people, I'm closely related to one, and I've sought to empathise with them and understand them as much as I think is possible for a non-trans person. Can you say the same?

Such blinkered viewpoints and misunderstandings about the life experience of the people on FWR is not surprising but it never ceases to be disappointing.

You've plainly not read the many accounts by posters about their family members and friends who are within the trans umbrella. Have you looked through the transwidows support thread, far less their website?

I have to wonder if you've attempted the inverse of your non-challenge? Have you attempted to understand and empathise with the GC people whom you know? Any gay or lesbian friends and family who are disturbed that they're being redefined as same gender rather than same sex attracted? Any woman friends and family who are in prison and in favour of single sex prisons? Any female friends and family who've experienced the trauma of rape and want the refuge of a single-sex space to support them?

ChristabelHolloway

Do you honestly think the women on this board don't know anyone who is trans? Or don't have someone who is trans in their family? Or have been married to someone who is trans? Do you think that this is all an opinion about something that no one has any experience of?

There are trans and reams of narratives on these boards from people who know trans people. Thousands upon thousands of posts from women women are married to transwomen, or whose children identify as trans.

Of course people can empathise with issues like gender dysphoria, social contagion, wanting to belong. There are threads from desperate mothers who are agonising how to deal with their confused children who want hormones because their schools have taught them an ideology that is quite, quite divorced from reality.

If you think that women on a feminist board, on a website devoted to parenting aren't looking at this out of a very frightened sense of concern and empathy, then you're not bloody listening.

Honestly, Eresh. Every time.

What a lot of disingenuous crap. Nobody can answer the question, so instead they get all faux-indignant, accuse us all of being horrible, and flounce. EVERY TIME.

Pah.

It seems to me that the whole premise of genderism and transgenderism 'makes sense' so long as you are careful not to ask one too many questions. When we look for definitions of the words used, it all seems to fall apart.

It does, doesn't it?

Can you say the same?

I have other stuff to concern myself with, frankly. Like women's rights. I don't feel that everyone's life has to revolve around trans ideology and that we must spend our lives endlessly striving to understand their personalities when many of them have not the slightest interest in understanding women's concerns. We have other priorities.

I know 3 transpeople

One is a complete bastard who has male and female days , who has left his wife and kids,

One is a gentle soul who would never force her way into womens spaces

Abs one was a young girl , in whom I could see a lot of myself , whose transition was to me a complete failure of those around her to help her navigate a traumatic period of life. Trauma made worse because she could never be a gender conforming soul which was beyond the understanding of her family . She was an extremely bright young thing whose life will be harmed by the treatment she has received

So yes I know some and yes I have tried to understand

Being trans can be cured, or it's a mental illness, or it's the result of trauma, or it's a fetish.

Which of these categories do the trans people you know fit into? Or are there other categories as well?

It can't possibly be that some people genuinely are trans, and it's just the way they are, can it?

What does it mean to 'be trans'?

I watched all of the Helen Joyce interview on Wine and Women, and what she said was transphobic.

I've only watched about the first 20 minutes so far. What do you think about her comments about the homophobic parents who think 'better a sterile daughter than a gay son'?

What about her comments about the Dutch doctors who pioneered the 'Dutch protocol', who when asked whether their patients did well in later life just talked about how miserable their lives were pre-transition so they didn't have much expectation of happier lives later on for them?

Most of the responses to my last post have misrepresented it, misunderstood it (and I think my writing is pretty clear) or just ignored the points I made.

But you didn't answer the question, so how can you accuse people of not engaging in good faith really, can you?

I'll try again. Could you answer either of the following questions?

If not using stereotypes, what are the markers of a female gender identity?

Or

Feeling like you are a woman = what exactly, without using stereotypes that don't even apply to all women?

Most of the responses to my last post have misrepresented it, misunderstood it (and I think my writing is pretty clear) or just ignored the points I made.

You didn't actually make any point, as people have painstakingly explained to you. You did not give a coherent definition of gender identity that doesn't have any relation to male/female stereotypes. You are clearly so deep into the ideology that you can't see it. What you are describing is a disembodied metaphysical sex consciousness essence. Why are you so sure that it exists, and yet you can't describe it? What does it feel like and how is it not just knowing which sex you are? You've presumed to inform us that we have a "gender identity". No. We know we are female. That's it.

Nothing? 😢

'what is it to feel like a woman'?

Please have a go, at least? I had hoped you were in good faith. I would like to understand.

So, you're not able to answer the question, then?