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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

284 replies

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/06/2022 15:14

So last night at the jubilee street party I canvassed opinion from some men, as wide an age range as I could. I asked them what they would do if they encountered a MTF person in a mans loo or changing room.

The consensus seemed to be ‘ it depends on them’. If they looked like a woman, that is, they were smaller than most men, slightly framed, dressed in an appropriate way they would expect a woman to be in the venue where they were for example a supermarket or a cinema , they would just point out that this was the ‘gents’. Most would be taken aback but not cross.

If there was some cognitive dissonance, that is, if the person had a masculine build and heft * whilst being dressed in what one referred to as a ‘girly’ way, so not unisex jeans and trainers, they would ‘ zip up and bolt’ . They might try to use a cubicle.

No one proposed attacking or even challenging them. ‘ keep well clear, you don’t know what might happen’ was the response to the suggestion of confrontation.

Of course it was a small sample, in a middle class area with middle aged men. But they seemed to feel threatened rather than threatening.

*when I suggested that some women might present convincingly as a man in that situation, they laughed!

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/06/2022 16:42

My sense of womanhood has been shaped by so many things and all are equally valid

Have they been shaped by:

Premature ejaculation
Voice breaking
Fathering a child
Having a prostate check

Or do you think there is some commonality of female experiences?

teawamutu · 03/06/2022 16:42

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:32

@NancyDrawed

I think this is where my opinion differs as I do feel TW are entitled to use women only spaces as they are women. I do not feel threatened by TW. Nor do I feel threatened by men.

And your feeling that it's fine means that you can give consent on behalf of all women?

Even the women of minority faiths who can't share intimate spaces with males? And the very many female victims of male violence?

The women who will stop using spaces that admit males, and will therefore lose 100% of their provision in order that a male might select his preference from all the spaces?

That's fine with you, is it?

I must say that it's pretty damn obvious to me that you know exactly what a woman is. Because you're prioritising males every time.

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 03/06/2022 16:42

Why do you continue to use “cis” as a qualifier when you’ve been told that it’s not necessary & that some find it offensive?

trans women are trans women they are not women. They need a prefix, women do not

also I do not feel like a woman I simply am one on the basis that I was born female

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 16:41

Feeling like a woman is completely unique.

If "feeling like a woman" is completely unique to each individual, in what sense is the phrase even meaningful.

The only way to know that you feel like a woman, is to know based on grounded, empirical, embodied reality, that you are a woman. Then everything you feel is feeling like a woman.

If you aren't a woman in the physical, material sense of the word, then you cannot "feel like a woman." You can only imagine you feel like a woman. And anyone can imagine anything, we shouldn't base policy and law and safeguarding on the content of people's imaginations.

tobee · 03/06/2022 16:41

There is no such thing as "feeling like a woman" as it is not quantifiable.

NancyDrawed · 03/06/2022 16:40

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:32

@NancyDrawed

I think this is where my opinion differs as I do feel TW are entitled to use women only spaces as they are women. I do not feel threatened by TW. Nor do I feel threatened by men.

I am happy for you that you do not feel threatened by the presence of men. But many of us do - so whose feelings trump whose?

I'm all for third spaces so that everyone can be accommodated.

You could use the mixed sex space (not meant to be outing or othering as it would be open to both sexes regardless of gender identity) and I'll use the space for women. Men who are uncomfortable in mixed sex spaces can use the men's. Everyone's happy - TW don't have to use the men's and women aren't forced to have males in their spaces.

Transwomen are not the same as women, they are transwomen.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:40

@Ereshkigalangcleg

When I first heard about cis I initially felt angry. However I now realise that I don't believe in sex being binary. I feel it's far more complex than what we currently know.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 03/06/2022 16:38

Put this string into a search engine.

site:mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights swedish study transwomen men

The string returns results about the comparative level of violence or offending such as:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3761578-Long-Term-Follow-Up-of-Transsexual-Persons-Undergoing-Sex-Reassignment-Surgery-Cohort-Study-in-Sweden-2011-clarification-by-lead-researcher-Dr-Cecilia-Dhejne-2015

Similarly this string, as per people's preferences, returns discussion threads about US and UK statistics. This is more likely to return specific ones about violence against women.

site:mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights rate offending transwomen men

For an analysis of several studies, it might be worth looking through the written evidence that was requested by the HoC Women and Equalities Committee. Evidence and Data on Trans Women’s Offending Rates
Submitted by Professor Rosa Freedman, Professor Kathleen Stock, and Professor Alice Sullivan

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 16:38

I don't feel TW are doing this

Of course they are.

If the category of "women" is redefined from "adult human females" to also include "men who imagine they feel like a woman feels" then that is literally redefining women as a group based on the imaginings of men.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:37

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

Feeling like a woman is completely unique. We could define a woman in so many ways. I don't feel being born with a vagina/vulva/cervix etc means that my feelings on womanhood are more correct than those who aren't born with these.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/06/2022 16:37

I am a cis female. I am assuming you were born a female too?

I am a woman. This means that I was born female, grew up as female, am female and will die female. It's not possible to change sex.

I don't use the term cis as it is superfluous gender ideological in-group speak, which is meaningless to me, and presumes that I support a belief system I believe is sexist and harmful.

IstayedForTheFeminism · 03/06/2022 16:36

I could well believe that transwomen face abuse in male toilets.
My own GNC son has been called a 'transgender bitch' and told to get the fuck out. He's not transgender, just a boy with long hair. The older he gets the more you can tell he's male though by his body shape and gait.
However, the answer to this isn't to let him use the ladies toilets. As much as I know he's not a threat, other women don't.

And what does it mean "feel like a woman"? I just feel like me. Some of those feelings are shaped by having a female body, in which case a trans woman can't possibly have them.

Other than that they are just 'me'.

I don't 'feel like a woman' I just am one. On account of having a female body.

MaudeYoung · 03/06/2022 16:35

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:32

@NancyDrawed

I think this is where my opinion differs as I do feel TW are entitled to use women only spaces as they are women. I do not feel threatened by TW. Nor do I feel threatened by men.

From where does the "entitlement" you describe derive?

There is nothing in any law that bestows any entitlement to such men.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:34

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

Can you recognise that it's incredibly insulting to women to redefine us as a group based on the imaginings of men?

I don't feel TW are doing this but instead is how it feels to some women, which I feel fuels the controversy and anger about this issue.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 16:33

As such I would never assume my female-ness would feel the same for you.

So there's no such thing as feeling like a woman, then?

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:32

@NancyDrawed

I think this is where my opinion differs as I do feel TW are entitled to use women only spaces as they are women. I do not feel threatened by TW. Nor do I feel threatened by men.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:30

I am a cis female. I am assuming you were born a female too? (Absolutely no requirement to answer this btw) As such I would never assume my female-ness would feel the same for you. My sense of womanhood has been shaped by so many things and all are equally valid, as they are for you.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

NancyDrawed · 03/06/2022 16:30

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:20

@MaudeYoung

For me - I have a problem with asserting that trans women are equal to men who perpetuate violence against women.

Some men are a risk to females and therefore all men are excluded from female only spaces. It's not a perfect system, but I belive safeguarding is about reducing risk

Regardless of how a person 'feels' - and let's be clear, it is impossible to feel like anyone but yourself - all males should be excluded from female only spaces. Transwomen are male. Therefore TW should not be in female only spaces.

I do not think that all TW are predators, just as I do not think that all men are predators. But some ARE.

MaudeYoung · 03/06/2022 16:29

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:20

@MaudeYoung

For me - I have a problem with asserting that trans women are equal to men who perpetuate violence against women.

Men who claim they are not men are men.

My word for any man, regardless of what he claims about himself, who violates any boundaries of a woman against her consent is predator.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 16:27

How someone feels is completely unique to them.

It's very promising that you recognise this. Since everyone's feelings are completely unique to them, no one has access to the feelings of anyone else.

So... you can recognise that men have no access to the feelings of women?

And therefore, that a man who claims to feel like a woman is basing it purely on how he imagines a woman feels?

Can you recognise that it's incredibly insulting to women to redefine us as a group based on the imaginings of men?

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:27

@teawamutu

I am curious in what is fuelling your assertion that 'it's enough' and therefore it's a blanket no.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/06/2022 16:26

If they feel like a woman, who am I to contradict otherwise?

Ah ok, well given that I don't feel that males could possibly know what "feeling female" is like, my opinion on the matter can't be contradicted.

teawamutu · 03/06/2022 16:24

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:18

@GCRich

(1) No-one is transitioning, they are LARPing

Some do and so what if some do larp? Are all larps perverts?

(2) Because they are re-enforcing retrogressive sex based stereotypes.

They? All of them? Really?

(3) Because they are denying women's rights of association and destroying their other sex based rights

There are some trans women who are very vocal, the same can be said for cos female and cos males and trans men too.

(4) Because they are denying the right of lesbians and gay men to identify as same sex attracted

Some do

(5) Because they lie
(6) Because they refuse to debate in good faith
(7) Because they are appalling social media troll and abusers
(8) Because they deny science
(9) Because they encourage vulnerable teens (often autistic or with other mental health issues down an unproven medical pathway that will leave them sterile and may leave them mutilated and unable to orgasm)
(10) Because they are unconcerned about the way they are risking the rights of more reasonable long term "old school" transsexuals who are being caught in the backlash of an insane ideology

I have been through the list and realise my answer is the same for all of them. You seem to put all trans women in the same camp? Is this correct?

Not all, but enough.

And even if it was none, they are NOT WOMEN and never will be.

Our no is enough. We do not have to justify it, even if it makes men sad.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/06/2022 16:24

For me - I have a problem with asserting that trans women are equal to men who perpetuate violence against women.

The same applies to all male people, most of whom do not perpetuate violence against women, it isn't specific discrimination against MTF trans people only.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:22

@Ereshkigalangcleg

How someone feels is completely unique to them. If they feel like a woman, who am I to contradict otherwise? The same can be said for so many things.

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