Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

Since you claim that you're "painfully aware of sexual violence" then you are presumably aware of the necessity of safeguarding? You understand that it's very important to reduce the opportunities for sexual predators to commit sexual violence and limit their access to vulnerable victims?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

No I wouldn't want to add to other Womens struggles, but I do wonder how many of these views are actually fuelled by misappropriated fear.

I thought I had made it clear in an earlier post. I accept that not all men are predatory, but some are.

Equally, there are plenty of men who I know reasonably well - brothers in law, schoolfriends, husbands of friends, who I would not be happy sharing a space with. Not because I think that I am at risk from them, but because of dignity and privacy and wanting to be in a space away from men when I am vulnerable.

What is it about the males who call themselves women that mean they should be allowed into female only spaces in your opinion? Because surely if some males are allowed in, then ALL males should be allowed in. Why do you think, that there should be no spaces where women can exclude males - however they identify?

@sunlovingcriminal "I am all for third spaces. I think they answer a problem... however, I wonder if the third spaces would be adopted or whether they'd be rejected by trans women?"

Indeed. It would demonstrate what we know about many of these men, that their behaviour is more about violating women's boundaries against their consent. Third, separate mixed-sex spaces are the answer; there is no excuse then for any man of any description to use any single sex spaces for females.

this I can tell you
DH would run in the opposite direction if he came across f to m trans in loo if they were obvious purely from embarrassment -

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

I am very privelaged to have had the therapy I have had. I am also very privileged to have met/know lots of caring and loving men and trans people.

Your argument then is to remove ALL sex and gender segregation?

if there’s no danger and we all the same and who can tell anyway because it’s a feeling on the inside that counts.

but yeah, as teawamutu says, sex is all so terribly, terribly complicated, yet you seem to have honed instinctively in on which 50% of the population should re-examine their prejudices and shut the fuck up and which 50% should get what they want at the expense of others. Funny that.

incedentally it was this sort of thing that peaked me.

What about other women's struggles? Presume you don't want to add to them either.

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

Your assertion is ironic as I am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse and neglect (petpetrated by both men and 1 female). I am painfully aware of sexually violence. But, I don't want to be afraid of people. I don't want to judge people or add to their struggles. I have also had year's of therapy which I know has helped me in this capacity.

I can assure you I was born with female bits, have periods, have 2 kids...

I'll pretend to believe this - you're in the "staggeringly lucky or sheltered" category that I referred to. Perhaps you should reflect on your privilege and listen to all the other women here who are telling you tbased on life experience hat it is in fact necessary to take precautions around men, even though only a minority of men are violent rapists.

But this is where the issue lies. If we only consider our own reactions we fail to consider the reactions of those who might actually be really threatened by the presence of biological males in a changing room/toilet- like those who have suffered domestic violence, those with religious beliefs, or simply those who have different levels of comfort from ourselves.

If we don't do this, and just say "it's fine, we're all cool with this", how do we then turn off the tap, and protect those who are more vulnerable.

Or do we not bother, and just shunt those women out of their safe spaces?

I am all for third spaces. I think they answer a problem... however, I wonder if the third spaces would be adopted or whether they'd be rejected by trans women?

Yes, actually. Wading in and telling women what to do or think seems to me to reek of male entitlement/ socialisation.

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

I can assure you I was born with female bits, have periods, have 2 kids...

Without wanting to go in circles, but why are you frightened?

men commit over 98% of all sex crimes. They commit over 90% of all violent crimes. However they identify.

It's not rocket science to understand the risk reduction in having sex segregation. And why a male insisting on entry to a female only space is a red flag.

@Roseglen84

So I don't agree with these views and therefore I think like a male? Did you really just imply this?😂

not all are violent rapists, therefore why should I treat them as such.

I honestly don't believe you're a "cisgender female," because almost every woman who ever made it into adulthood, unless she is staggeringly lucky or sheltered, is aware that you have to take precautions around men that you don't have to take around women. Yes, not all men are violent rapists. But if you're a woman and you go round blithely assuming that no men are violent rapists, and not taking precautions because you don't want to "treat them as such" you'll have a very bad time very quickly.

@Wifwolf

I agree I am also uncertain and questioning of my reactions. What's key I think is how much of my reaction is truly justified.

"I feel the same can be said for TW, not all are violent rapists, therefore why should I treat them as such."

How does anyone woman know which man is a rapist and which is not?

The point is that women have never, do not and never will consent to men of any description using their spaces where they are led to believe that such a space is a single-sex space for females only.

Anyone who wants to deceive women about that is violating her boundaries against her consent and is, therefore, a predator. [Note that deceit vitiates consent.]

How someone feels is completely unique to them. If they feel like a woman, who am I to contradict otherwise? The same can be said for so many things.

ROFL - if it's completely unique - how is it 'like a woman'? Don't all women feel uniquely differently too then?

As things to say go, that one is fantastic. Everyone has unique feelings, but some unique feelings are 'like a woman' - not that we can define a woman to know what these feelings that we apparently all share whilst being also unique are.

I really think it's a waste of time to keep engaging with this person who seems intent on telling women how to think/feel. How very male of them.

Yes, because transwomen consider the word women to be 'literal violence'. So from that perspective, I'm sure they experience violence every day, everywhere.

@teawamutu

Absolutely not. I am aware people feel different. I am simply stating my opinion.

@NancyDrawed

Without wanting to go in circles, but why are you frightened? I can't help but think of the racist demonstration of black people and/or Jewish people on TV which always portrayed them as rapists, thieves etc. just as we know some black people do commit crime, not all do and as such we would not consciously act negatively around black people because of this (I say consciously because I believe we all have subconscious biases and prejudices - but I feel ot is about being aware of them to keep them in check). I feel the same can be said for TW, not all are violent rapists, therefore why should I treat them as such.

I know I have biases. I know that my first thought is one of feeling unsettled if I saw an obvious male-looking TW in a female only space, but I would also try to question this assumption. How would I know that this male-looking person in a female space is male, what do you honestly propose?

If someone feels like a pilot, would you be happy for them to fly you on holiday?

If someone feels like a surgeon, are you happy for them to operate on you?

Can you give me any other examples of things people tell you they are that are provably incorrect, but upon which you take them at face value?

Interesting you admit you are uncomfortable on finding a male person in a woman’s space, but that you would subdue your natural, instinctively reaction, even though that might make you less safe?

You seem to think that because these men have gone through a lot and feel stuff they should be allowed access to women's spaces.

The women's changing rooms, toilets, sports, prisons are not prizes that men can win if they pass some hurdles.