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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

284 replies

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/06/2022 15:14

So last night at the jubilee street party I canvassed opinion from some men, as wide an age range as I could. I asked them what they would do if they encountered a MTF person in a mans loo or changing room.

The consensus seemed to be ‘ it depends on them’. If they looked like a woman, that is, they were smaller than most men, slightly framed, dressed in an appropriate way they would expect a woman to be in the venue where they were for example a supermarket or a cinema , they would just point out that this was the ‘gents’. Most would be taken aback but not cross.

If there was some cognitive dissonance, that is, if the person had a masculine build and heft * whilst being dressed in what one referred to as a ‘girly’ way, so not unisex jeans and trainers, they would ‘ zip up and bolt’ . They might try to use a cubicle.

No one proposed attacking or even challenging them. ‘ keep well clear, you don’t know what might happen’ was the response to the suggestion of confrontation.

Of course it was a small sample, in a middle class area with middle aged men. But they seemed to feel threatened rather than threatening.

*when I suggested that some women might present convincingly as a man in that situation, they laughed!

OP posts:
Datun · 03/06/2022 17:20

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:12

@MaudeYoung

We can't. And this is frightening. However I do not want to have to be worried about this everytime I leave the house. I honestly don't think a TW using female toilets is doing so because she's a pervert.

Stonewall themselves include cross dressers under their trans umbrella.

No-one is making this up.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 17:20

(also, of course I don't think anyone else's sense of self is more valid than my own. )

Wifwolf · 03/06/2022 17:19

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:54

@Wifwolf

I agree I am also uncertain and questioning of my reactions. What's key I think is how much of my reaction is truly justified.

I said something very similar to your original comment when I first came on this board.

Now I realise that if even I, lucky as I am in having had few genuinely unpleasant experiences with men, feel a little uncomfortable, then perhaps I need to think about those women who have had appalling experiences, and would find the situation truly impossible.

Personally, I think we need to put the needs of women who are unable to use spaces with men in them above the claims of men who would like to use women’s spaces. The rights clash is obvious and I think those who have been in those spaces all their lives because they are female, should have priority.

If there are some male people who feel unable to use male spaces, they should respect the fact that their wish to move out of male spaces does not give them the right to displace women who need their own spaces. If those men need a new space, separate from other men, then they need to work towards that.

Stonewall and all the other trans charities have used huge sums of money campaigning to put men in women’s spaces. Had they used that money to campaign for, or even provide, safe spaces for those men, it seems likely they would have progressed quite a long way towards making those people safer.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:18

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

Oh I get it now... You're representing ALL Womens views now?

My view stated here represent my own. I do not reflect other Womens views or experiences.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 17:18

So because I think differently to you - then all of what I am saying has to be fabricated? I am seeing now why you can't imagine another human beings sense of self is any more valid than your own.

You could just answer the question and demonstrate the knowledge of safeguarding that you claim.

You must be aware that limiting opportunities for sexual predators to access their victims means that you can't just assume that someone is not a predator? You have to treat them as if they might be.

MaudeYoung · 03/06/2022 17:18

This reply has been deleted

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teawamutu · 03/06/2022 17:18

NancyDrawed · 03/06/2022 17:11

I know I have biases. I know that my first thought is one of feeling unsettled if I saw an obvious male-looking TW in a female only space, but I would also try to question this assumption.

This actually makes me feel a bit worried for you. Why would you ignore your gut feeling? We are really good at reading the sex of people from various cues - which is why it is far more difficult for someone attempting to pass as the opposite sex in person than it is on a photo. Your instincts tell you a male is a male because male people in general are bigger and stronger than female people. And while I accept that women can be violent too, I daresay that if it came to a physical fight I would stand a better chance against a female than a male.

Yes.

Hobgoblin, cross as I have been with some of the posts you've made today, I truly applaud anyone who survives such experiences, puts themselves through therapy and genuinely tries to overcome thinking patterns.

I do wonder, though, whether there's a risk of overriding your own risk assessment system in the interests of being kind, or having already experienced awful things.

Refusing to live with a victim mentality is one thing; refusing to recognise vulnerabilities (and thereby increasing the likelihood of harm) is quite another.

Somanysocks · 03/06/2022 17:17

👋hi Stella

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:16

@Roseglen84

The same pattern of violence? Was this from the Swedish study? The authors refuted these interpretations.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 17:15

But why do you assume that I feel this respect etc isn't awarded to me anyway?

Holy shit. It's not all about you. Women and their boundaries also deserve to be respected. Sorry. "Other" women.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:14

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

So because I think differently to you - then all of what I am saying has to be fabricated? I am seeing now why you can't imagine another human beings sense of self is any more valid than your own.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:12

@MaudeYoung

We can't. And this is frightening. However I do not want to have to be worried about this everytime I leave the house. I honestly don't think a TW using female toilets is doing so because she's a pervert.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 17:12

I am aware of safeguarding (both personally and professionally). But again I feel you gave equated TW/men as violent rapists.

If you're aware of safeguarding both personally and professionally (yet another very difficult claim to believe) then you must be aware that limiting opportunities for sexual predators to access their victims means that you can't just assume that someone is not a predator? You have to treat them as if they might be.

Roseglen84 · 03/06/2022 17:12

If you have the stomach for it HobgoblinGold, look up autogynephila - these are men who have a sexual fetish as themselves as women. They get aroused by the thoughts of being in women's spaces and being seen as a woman. Therefore they need unsuspecting women to participate in their fetish. We do not consent to this.
Stonewall of course would call these men the most oppressed in society or something....

NancyDrawed · 03/06/2022 17:11

I know I have biases. I know that my first thought is one of feeling unsettled if I saw an obvious male-looking TW in a female only space, but I would also try to question this assumption.

This actually makes me feel a bit worried for you. Why would you ignore your gut feeling? We are really good at reading the sex of people from various cues - which is why it is far more difficult for someone attempting to pass as the opposite sex in person than it is on a photo. Your instincts tell you a male is a male because male people in general are bigger and stronger than female people. And while I accept that women can be violent too, I daresay that if it came to a physical fight I would stand a better chance against a female than a male.

DialSquare · 03/06/2022 17:11

Anyone else reminded of "Repent Motherfucket"?!!!!

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:10

@Ereshkigalangcleg

But why do you assume that I feel this respect etc isn't awarded to me anyway?

JellySaurus · 03/06/2022 17:10

Consider how far a journey and how difficult it would be for this very human being to be sharing the space with me.

Irrelevant. You don't earn a place in a women's space by some sort of Suffering Olympics.

This other woman is also vulnerable, so why should I deny this space to them?

Not a woman. May be vulnerable, but we do not know that. We do know that women are vulnerable to violence from men and we can't always tell which man is going to try to harm us. That is why this space should be denied to them.

Where is the sister solidarity in this?

With other women. Not with men trying to colonise womanhood.

Roseglen84 · 03/06/2022 17:09

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:06

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

I am aware of safeguarding (both personally and professionally). But again I feel you gave equated TW/men as violent rapists.

It's not equating them with rapists, it's simply stating that they have the exact same pattern of violence, including sexual violence as any other man. Because they are men.

MaudeYoung · 03/06/2022 17:09

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:06

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

I am aware of safeguarding (both personally and professionally). But again I feel you gave equated TW/men as violent rapists.

"But again I feel you gave equated TW/men as violent rapists."

How does any woman distinguish those men who are rapists from those men who are not?

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:09

@Bolleauxxxx

I have not asserted anyone should stfu. I am purely stating my opinion.

It does feel we have one camp who says ‘no - you're not welcome’ and another who responds with terf! I don't think either are helpful.

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 03/06/2022 17:08

What do you mean by 'misappropriated fear'?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/06/2022 17:07

No I wouldn't want to add to other Womens struggles, but I do wonder how many of these views are actually fuelled by misappropriated fear.

Maybe less patronising wondering about whether women who don't agree with you understand their own thoughts and more empathy for their feelings, boundaries and needs? It's not just about safety, it's about having privacy and dignity and being respected.

Roseglen84 · 03/06/2022 17:06

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:57

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

I can assure you I was born with female bits, have periods, have 2 kids...

Fair enough. So you understand then the role that biology played in making those children. Your male partner/ husband could never have grown or birthed those children, no matter how much he may 'feel like a woman' inside.

Because men can never have the biology of women. They will never experience periods, pregnancy, childbirth, menopause. And also will never experience the discrimination on the basis of those biological processes.

This is not new

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:06

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

I am aware of safeguarding (both personally and professionally). But again I feel you gave equated TW/men as violent rapists.

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