Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

Because a man who has gone through the work to actually use a woman's space as he feels like a woman...

What work does a person have to go through to use a woman's space.

Do women have to go through this work as well? If not, why not?

Yes.
Men should educate themselves that not all males present in traditional and stereotypically male clothing but they still should be in the men’s toilets.
That’s what you mean, right?

Surely you can’t mean women ignore a millennia of oppression and abuse at the hands of males, to ensure males feel safe and validated by encroaching in female only spaces.

I guess it's not about male and femaleness in this capacity, but just being kind?

Why can't the TW be kind to the women who are uncomfortable with a man being in the women's toilets?

Would you please, for just one nanosecond, think what difference it makes to women how men are classified in their spaces?

Really, really try and explain what's in it for women. For just a second can you drag your focus away from men and explain the benefit to the women whose spaces they are?

Why is that man's need for validation more important than women's need for privacy and dignity away from males?

Also, women have mooted the idea of a third spaces many times, and we are told we are hateful and bigoted for doing so. Because it's not really about safety of transwomen, it's that they want the validation of being seen as female in a female space.

I'd say you think very differently from the overwhelming majority of women because it seems that you may disregard the needs of women who adhere to religions which have rules about women associating with men is certain circumstances; you seem to disregard women who have been subjected to psychological and / or physical damage from men; you seem to disregard any woman who has any need for personal privacy, a sense of human dignity or any personal sense of safety.

That does not mean you think like a man; it means you think very differently from the overwhelming majority of women who, instinctively, have empathy for their fellow women in the face of the threat that is known to them from predatory men.

@NancyDrawed

Yes I would.

You're right - in my head. Transwomen represent those with dusphoria and all the psychological turmoil that goes with it.

I do have an issue with how sex and gender identity seems to be grouped together. I do think this inherently.makes it much harder to protect those who are most vulnerable.

If a TW is so convincing they pass, then they can use the ladies (can't stop them frankly).

Disagree; lots of TW are convinced they pass but don't. And their own basic human decency should stop them - it's in oddly short supply.

If a TW is so convincing they pass, then they can use the ladies (can't stop them frankly). But that is a tiny tiny fraction of TW as per stonewall description. Most won't pass - they should use the mens

HobgoblinGold. Male pattern violence doesn't change with transitioning. The sorts of areas that are being targeted are specifically where women are quite vulnerable. Toilets with knickers round ankles, undressed in changing rooms, incarcerated in prison, recovering from male violence in rape refuges, unwell on hospital wards.

can you really not see why women would like female only spaces under certain circumstances?

@unwashedanddazed

Because a man who has gone through the work to actually use a woman's space as he feels like a woman (I don't mean this to sound as flippant as it might read) adoesn't need my prejudice to make her day that little more shit. I guess it's not about male and femaleness in this capacity, but just being kind?

Or @HobgoblinGold

Would you allow your 9 year old daughter into female only facilities on her own to use the toilet? Say, in a restaurant

If so, would you send her into unisex facilities alone directly following a man?

If not, would you send her into female facilities alone after a man wearing a wig and lipstick?

@datun

Ok - how and when transwomen are classified - I find this a difficult concept to think through in terms of ensuring the rights and safety for all.

But your own admission a man can think he is a woman, and must therefore be accepted as a woman - how is that any less ridiculous?

@Wifwolf

Fair enough

The authors did NOT refute the interpretations of their study.

See: murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/05/20/has-the-scottish-government-undertaken-any-further-analysis-on-gender-recognition-reform-since-2019/

@Roseglen84

So I think differently and therefore I think like a man? Riiiight

It's not about how they look - it's that they are willing to violate women's boundaries. Most people don't care how someone dresses, what they call themselves etc. But if a male person enters a single sex space (toilet, changing room, refuge, prison etc.) they are invading women's spaces and don't belong.

Nothing to do with how they look, to do with their behaviour.

Dhejne wobbled, because she didn’t like the fact that her results were being used by those arguing to deny her patients the access she wants them to have.

She is, however, unable to refute her own finding, that even male transsexuals who are undergoing a process of medical transition, continue to criminally offend at the same level as other males.

@HobgoblinGold

You are coming across to me as someone who feels a great deal of empathy with people (in this thread, men) with crippling gender dysphoria. People who might find their life more bearable if they can be accepted as the opposite sex to the reality of their biology. Who would want to deny that?

I was you not that many years ago. Then I discovered that transwoman is not the same as transsexual woman and that there are plenty of men who hate women, who are delighted that they can cloak their hatred of women in 'trans rights' and pretend they are being progressive.

Genuine question - would you object to a man in a space meant to be female only and labelled as such?

The same way that I'd like to think that all people working with kids aren't paedophiles- however, we still put in place extra levels of safeguarding and crb checks to be sure, and even then some wrong 'uns fall through the cracks.

Unfortunately life isn't always that rosey, and there are a number of people who will take advantage of this "it's okay for all (as long as we try and look feminine) to use the ladies facilities" to be nefarious. So, for now, I'm quite happy that we stand together for men to be educated to be more tolerant in their spaces, as opposed to women being called names if they don't want biological men in theirs.

@NancyDrawed

I try not to ignore my instinct. But if I had a view based solely on how someone looked - yeah id question this.

So @HobgoblinGold

Sex based violence doesn't exist and is a figment of women's imaginations? There are no cases of TW sexually assaulting women in shared spaces? There are no men who share pictures on Reddit of them dressing up and masturbating in women's toilets and changing rooms?

When women are subject to sexual assault, they are often quizzed on what "risky" behaviours they adopted - were you alone, were you drunk, was it dark etc etc. Women are always told that they have to try to manage their own risk alone, otherwise they are to blame for male violence. But according to you, women who might have been sexually assaulted already have an unjustified fear when they try to find single sex spaces as a refuge from men?

My view stated here represent my own. I do not reflect other Womens views or experiences.

Yes, that is abundantly clear. The comment you are responding to states that other women who have different boundaries than you also deserve to be respected.

Do you believe that other women deserve to have their boundaries respected?

Why are you so ready to dismiss the feelings inside a woman's head to accommodate the feelings in a man's head?