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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

284 replies

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/06/2022 15:14

So last night at the jubilee street party I canvassed opinion from some men, as wide an age range as I could. I asked them what they would do if they encountered a MTF person in a mans loo or changing room.

The consensus seemed to be ‘ it depends on them’. If they looked like a woman, that is, they were smaller than most men, slightly framed, dressed in an appropriate way they would expect a woman to be in the venue where they were for example a supermarket or a cinema , they would just point out that this was the ‘gents’. Most would be taken aback but not cross.

If there was some cognitive dissonance, that is, if the person had a masculine build and heft * whilst being dressed in what one referred to as a ‘girly’ way, so not unisex jeans and trainers, they would ‘ zip up and bolt’ . They might try to use a cubicle.

No one proposed attacking or even challenging them. ‘ keep well clear, you don’t know what might happen’ was the response to the suggestion of confrontation.

Of course it was a small sample, in a middle class area with middle aged men. But they seemed to feel threatened rather than threatening.

*when I suggested that some women might present convincingly as a man in that situation, they laughed!

OP posts:
HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:14

@Datun

I am aware what the EHRC has stated. The opinion I have reflects my own.

I have no issue of a TW using female toilets.

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 03/06/2022 22:12

The problem with your sentence hob is that it's nonsense.

Datun · 03/06/2022 22:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Perhaps you don't understand it? It means that as soon as a man cross the threshold, it's no longer a women's space. It's gone.

Datun · 03/06/2022 22:10

MaudeYoung · 03/06/2022 21:58

This is the question that ALL men who claim they are not men should be required to answer.

I meant 'previous' not 'precious', but it still works.

What's in it for the women HobgoblinGold?

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ArcheryAnnie · 03/06/2022 22:07

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:38

@MrsTerryPratchett

I don't think a third space would help with reducing violence. People (mostly men) who perpetrate violence would just target different groups within this space. I think what is needed is education and examination of our own prejudices.

What do you do with women like me, who have already had quite a lot of education on the subject, who have thoroughly examines their own prejudices, and who still come to the conclusion that transwomen should not be in women's loos?

Ameanstreakamilewide · 03/06/2022 22:03

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:22

Cis females and more so mtf experience men perpetrated violence. Your sample size is small and not at all controlled for biases.

GTFO with 'cis'.

Popsicle33 · 03/06/2022 22:01

If a man has a cock he uses the men's toilet. A woman doesn't have a cock therefore uses the ladies toilet

MaudeYoung · 03/06/2022 21:58

Datun · 03/06/2022 21:41

Just to be crystal clear HobgoblinGold, what benefit is there to women in making all their precious segregated spaces now mixed sex?

This is the question that ALL men who claim they are not men should be required to answer.

Datun · 03/06/2022 21:41

Just to be crystal clear HobgoblinGold, what benefit is there to women in making all their precious segregated spaces now mixed sex?

Datun · 03/06/2022 21:39

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 20:46

@GCRich

Putting aside nefarious reasons, anyone who supports TW in women's toilets is implicitly saying -

The preferences of TW need to be prioritized over the preferences of women.

I don't think this - if a TW wants to use a female toilet then they can do. This for me is not about prioritizing there needs over a woman's, but recognizing that they have a right to do so as a woman.

They don't tho. You're just making that up. The. EHRC has been quite explicit.

www.politics.co.uk/news-in-brief/ehrc-says-trans-women-can-be-barred-from-female-only-toilets/

The Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) has today published new guidance that says trans women can be barred from female-only toilets and changing rooms.

You say you're not prioritising men over women, and then go ahead and do exactly that !

Roseglen84 · 03/06/2022 21:25

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 20:46

@GCRich

Putting aside nefarious reasons, anyone who supports TW in women's toilets is implicitly saying -

The preferences of TW need to be prioritized over the preferences of women.

I don't think this - if a TW wants to use a female toilet then they can do. This for me is not about prioritizing there needs over a woman's, but recognizing that they have a right to do so as a woman.

What right do they have to claim womanhood - a feeling in their head? That cannot trump biological reality. It is not your place to give away other women's right to privacy in single sex spaces.

You claim to have birthed 2 children, you didn't do this because of a feeling you have inside you, you gestated and birthed 2 children because of your female biology, as distinct from male biology.
And before you chime in with the 'gotcha' of not all women can have children - yes, that is true, but ONLY women have children. ONLY women menstruate, etc. These don't occur because we feel like women, they occur because of our biology.

MaudeYoung · 03/06/2022 21:20

JellySaurus · 03/06/2022 20:42

Important to be clear about the comparator, MaudeYoung, because most organisations who took training from transactivist organisations have been persuaded that the comparator for a transwoman is a woman.

Such people will lose their cases in court when corrected by a Judge.

Any man who claims he is not a man and also does not have a GRC is legally a male / man as far as the Equality Act 2010 is concerned.

Any man who claims he is not a man and who does have a GRC has very limited access to any claim for sex discrimination where a comparator would be female as far as the Equality Act 2010 is concerned.

Men who claim they are not men know this and it is why such men never make claims in any court. They know they can never win against the Equality Act 2010 when it comes to Sex Discrimination.

This, in itself, means that such men know they are men when it comes to reality.

GrinAndVomit · 03/06/2022 21:16

@HobgoblinGold
What is the shared characteristic that makes both me (a biological adult human female) and a transwoman women?

Mochudubh · 03/06/2022 21:11

GCRich · 03/06/2022 16:03

No man has ever entered a woman's space. Men destroy women's spaces as their leading foot starts to cross the threshold.

I've never thought of it like that before but of course, as soon as a a man enters a space, it is no longer a women only space. Thanks GCR.

OldCrone · 03/06/2022 21:08

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 20:46

@GCRich

Putting aside nefarious reasons, anyone who supports TW in women's toilets is implicitly saying -

The preferences of TW need to be prioritized over the preferences of women.

I don't think this - if a TW wants to use a female toilet then they can do. This for me is not about prioritizing there needs over a woman's, but recognizing that they have a right to do so as a woman.

What makes you believe that a TW is a woman?

JacquelineCarlyle · 03/06/2022 21:02

AlisonDonut · 03/06/2022 15:19

I've not heard of any man beating up a man who identified as a woman in any men's toilets. It's all a huge scam.

This!

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 03/06/2022 20:52

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 20:51

@Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky

I struggle with this because surely this skew of data means that it makes it harder to grasp what types of crimes are happening and therefore establishing reflective policies/servics to mitigate/prevent/reduce will always be made harder?

Well quite!!! It’s in no one’s interest to do so and yet here we are!!

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 03/06/2022 20:52

The thing is you believe TW are women

I do not.

TW are men & do not belong in womens spaces. If they are so disrespectful & disinterested in womens feelings to use womens spaces knowing they don’t belong then it’s not exactly a ringing endorsement of them is it?

it’s not my job or any womens job to be a support human to a bloke with issues however strongly felt those issues are

throwinthetowel · 03/06/2022 20:51

Men'sn

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 20:51

@Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky

I struggle with this because surely this skew of data means that it makes it harder to grasp what types of crimes are happening and therefore establishing reflective policies/servics to mitigate/prevent/reduce will always be made harder?

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 03/06/2022 20:47

Yes, stonewall have trained the police to be as they put it “ahead of the law” which means many police forces (not all) record crime by what the (alleged) perpetrator identifies their gender as

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 20:46

@GCRich

Putting aside nefarious reasons, anyone who supports TW in women's toilets is implicitly saying -

The preferences of TW need to be prioritized over the preferences of women.

I don't think this - if a TW wants to use a female toilet then they can do. This for me is not about prioritizing there needs over a woman's, but recognizing that they have a right to do so as a woman.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 20:43

@nepeta - thank-you for such a considered response. As I understand it though - as people can self identify this may skew police statistics? (I'm sure I read about this happening in the UK?)

JellySaurus · 03/06/2022 20:42

Important to be clear about the comparator, MaudeYoung, because most organisations who took training from transactivist organisations have been persuaded that the comparator for a transwoman is a woman.