Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

284 replies

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/06/2022 15:14

So last night at the jubilee street party I canvassed opinion from some men, as wide an age range as I could. I asked them what they would do if they encountered a MTF person in a mans loo or changing room.

The consensus seemed to be ‘ it depends on them’. If they looked like a woman, that is, they were smaller than most men, slightly framed, dressed in an appropriate way they would expect a woman to be in the venue where they were for example a supermarket or a cinema , they would just point out that this was the ‘gents’. Most would be taken aback but not cross.

If there was some cognitive dissonance, that is, if the person had a masculine build and heft * whilst being dressed in what one referred to as a ‘girly’ way, so not unisex jeans and trainers, they would ‘ zip up and bolt’ . They might try to use a cubicle.

No one proposed attacking or even challenging them. ‘ keep well clear, you don’t know what might happen’ was the response to the suggestion of confrontation.

Of course it was a small sample, in a middle class area with middle aged men. But they seemed to feel threatened rather than threatening.

*when I suggested that some women might present convincingly as a man in that situation, they laughed!

OP posts:
Wor · 03/06/2022 23:55

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:43

amp.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/17/trans-people-twice-as-likely-to-be-victims-of-in-england-and-wales

I could carry on posting articles about what I'm writing about. It is there if you look. But I do wonder whether there are women who just choose to ignore it because it goes against there own prejudices and discrimination.

Now I understand this. I would feel shocked if I saw a trans woman in a female only space but I would actively try and question my own reaction on this and try to empathise with this other 'woman'. Consider how far a journey and how difficult it would be for this very human being to be sharing the space with me. This other woman is also vulnerable, so why should I deny this space to them? Where is the sister solidarity in this?

What are you on about?

If I saw a transwoman in a female only space such as a toilet, I wouldn’t feel anything to do with “sister solidarity” (which doesn’t exist by the way - just look at Mumsnet! - what a patronising male myth). I would instead feel very aware that I was in a confined space with a person much more physically powerful than me who has the physical equipment to rape and beat me and who belongs to a sex defined by its aggression, and their clothes and very presence in that location tell me that they are a psychologically unwell person with self-hate issues who is happy to break social norms for their own benefit. And I would be out of there like a shot.

Because when women are in a confined space out of sight with a mentally unwell man, things often go badly for the woman.

FemaleAndLearning · 03/06/2022 23:48

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:43

amp.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/17/trans-people-twice-as-likely-to-be-victims-of-in-england-and-wales

I could carry on posting articles about what I'm writing about. It is there if you look. But I do wonder whether there are women who just choose to ignore it because it goes against there own prejudices and discrimination.

Now I understand this. I would feel shocked if I saw a trans woman in a female only space but I would actively try and question my own reaction on this and try to empathise with this other 'woman'. Consider how far a journey and how difficult it would be for this very human being to be sharing the space with me. This other woman is also vulnerable, so why should I deny this space to them? Where is the sister solidarity in this?

That just sounds like you are telling us to 'be kind'?

Lovelyricepudding · 03/06/2022 23:21

I think it is important to remember exactly what is required in order for a man to become a bonefide stonewall definition approved transwoman...

The man must decide "I am a woman in this instance for this purpose, that may all change in two minutes but just now I am a woman".

That is it - no heartsearching, no medication, no surgery, no change of cloths, no shaving the beard, no commitment to think the same way in five minutes time, no need to tell anyone, no change of name. Just a passing feeling is enough.

Lovelyricepudding · 03/06/2022 23:15

All these oppressed groups...

In what way are transwomen an oppressed group?

Lovelyricepudding · 03/06/2022 23:12

So why are the reported overall violence figures against transgender people so high, yet the homicide rates are not, outside South America? This clearly needs good research

The homicide rate for transwomen in South America is an order of magnitude lower than other men and considerably lower than women. The numbers may still look high but that is because of the shockingly high murder rate for all demographics there.

GrinAndVomit · 03/06/2022 22:53

Datun · 03/06/2022 22:43

I'm sure most people reading this are already aware, but to me, it's always useful to get the crunch.

Women and girls not allowed any place away from men, if those men say so. And we are told to swallow utter fantasy as a justification.

It was the “if a Muslim enters a female only space it is no longer a female only space” stuff that actually made me wince.
35 years of “be kind” has really done a number on me.
I can’t help but start to feel sorry for them when they start making fools of themselves.

GrinAndVomit · 03/06/2022 22:50

Just to note @HobgoblinGold
A better analogy would be:

If a white person entered a place that had been deigned a safe space for ethnic minorities, it would no longer be a safe space for ethnic minorities.

If an able bodied person entered a safe space designed only for disabled people, it would no longer be a safe space for disabled only people.

If a female entered a safe space for transwomen, it would no longer be a safe space for transwomen.

All these oppressed groups have genuine reasons for wanting to meet up with one another to the exclusion of those not part of that oppressed group.

You cannot simply interchange these oppressed groups with one another as they do not have the same oppressors.

Datun · 03/06/2022 22:43

GrinAndVomit · 03/06/2022 22:37

Oh that got embarrassing
Night @HobgoblinGold

I'm sure most people reading this are already aware, but to me, it's always useful to get the crunch.

Women and girls not allowed any place away from men, if those men say so. And we are told to swallow utter fantasy as a justification.

bellinisurge · 03/06/2022 22:42

I am not a subset of my sex. Cis is at best a sign of the speaker's gullibility. At worst it's a slur.

Datun · 03/06/2022 22:38

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:31

@Datun

Women, including TW, should be able to use female loos.

How would one actually stop TW from using female looks anyway? How would you honestly know?

This is nonsense. Cant you tell men from women?

And I must say that TRAs have a terribly dim view of transwomen. Why would they be entering a space that's not applicable to them? Where women have said it's segregated by sex?

Why would they knowingly violate that?

In one breath you're claiming that they would violate women's privacy and boundaries, and in the other moaning that it's awful to think anything bad of them!

GrinAndVomit · 03/06/2022 22:37

Oh that got embarrassing
Night @HobgoblinGold

Voice0fReason · 03/06/2022 22:35

There are numerous men who are more vulnerable than others.
Disabled men, gay men, ethnic minorities etc.
These would all be safer from male violence in the men's toilets if we allowed them into the women's.
However, we obviously wouldn't do that because it would be inappropriate. It would put women at risk and it would be unfair for women's dignity.

Women are not shields for vulnerable men.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:34

Night night everyone.

Datun · 03/06/2022 22:34

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:29

@datun

Yes - men should not enter Womens spaces. Nor would they want to.

‘I’ feel TW are not men though and as such can use female loos. I understand however this view is not shared widely on this group. I do feel however that fear (albeit understandable) perpetuates a growing frustration, anger, logger-heads towards the trans community. On the flip, some trans members then label some women as terfs. So in the end what progress is actually made?

What progress? What is there to progress if your premise is based on fantasy?

Women and girls are to be denied any privacy, or space away from men, when they're vulnerable because you appear to think that human beings can change sex. Or that sex isn't real. Or its a feeling.

It's a complete departure from reality.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:31

@Datun

Women, including TW, should be able to use female loos.

How would one actually stop TW from using female looks anyway? How would you honestly know?

IstayedForTheFeminism · 03/06/2022 22:29

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:23

@IstayedForTheFeminism

I've not chosen Muslim because its opposite. You could literally put in any group. I find that in excluding TW from female loos is fueled by fear that violence may be perpetrated by said TW because there were AMAB. Not all men perpetuate violence and therefore should not be treated as such. Exactly the same would be said for Muslims/black people/Jewish people/German people... The list could go on.

But the second you let non women in then it's no longer a 'women's space'.
Letting Muslim women/black women/,Jewish women/ German women in doesn't stop it being a women's space.

Not all men perpetuate violence and therefore should not be treated as such so should we let all men in no matter how they identify? Because NAMALT?

AMAB no one is assigned anything. Sex is observed and noted.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:29

@datun

Yes - men should not enter Womens spaces. Nor would they want to.

‘I’ feel TW are not men though and as such can use female loos. I understand however this view is not shared widely on this group. I do feel however that fear (albeit understandable) perpetuates a growing frustration, anger, logger-heads towards the trans community. On the flip, some trans members then label some women as terfs. So in the end what progress is actually made?

HRTQueen · 03/06/2022 22:27

A third space is needed

it’s not down to women to make everyone else feel safe

I don’t want to be around males in some circumstances as I want to feel safe as I’m more vulnerable. Putting a dress on and wearing make up and feeling like a women does not change the fact the person is male and males are far more violent than females

I don’t have to address prejudice that is a fact

Datun · 03/06/2022 22:24

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:23

@IstayedForTheFeminism

I've not chosen Muslim because its opposite. You could literally put in any group. I find that in excluding TW from female loos is fueled by fear that violence may be perpetrated by said TW because there were AMAB. Not all men perpetuate violence and therefore should not be treated as such. Exactly the same would be said for Muslims/black people/Jewish people/German people... The list could go on.

So to be clear, you don't think that women have any right to sex segregation, at all? Is that correct?

nepeta · 03/06/2022 22:24

Forcing 'cis' on people who don't believe in an abstract gender identity (which is used to define 'cis' as it's assumed to be based on people's abstract identity just happening to match their sex) is not inclusive.

It's like some religious sect calling outsiders 'heathens' and then demanding that all those outsiders accept being called 'heathens' just because representatives of the sect say that all 'heathen' means is someone outside the sect.

Datun · 03/06/2022 22:23

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:18

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

Just so we're clear - so me using Muslims instead of men is nonsense?

Muslim is not a sex segregated term.

Excluding men from women's spaces is perfectly legitimate.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:23

@IstayedForTheFeminism

I've not chosen Muslim because its opposite. You could literally put in any group. I find that in excluding TW from female loos is fueled by fear that violence may be perpetrated by said TW because there were AMAB. Not all men perpetuate violence and therefore should not be treated as such. Exactly the same would be said for Muslims/black people/Jewish people/German people... The list could go on.

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 03/06/2022 22:21

Yes. A Muslim woman entering a women's space has no effect. A Muslim man on the other hand...

IstayedForTheFeminism · 03/06/2022 22:19

No Muslim has ever entered a woman's space. Muslims destroy women's spaces as their leading foot starts to cross the threshold.

Do you see the problem with the totality of this statement?

Muslim isn't the opposite of woman though. So it's not the same at all.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:18

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

Just so we're clear - so me using Muslims instead of men is nonsense?