Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

@TheWeeDonkey

You obviously never read the run up to that comment.

If a Muslim enters a female only space...

Fuck me 🤦🏾‍♀️

The only reason I'm not reporting that comment is because I think it help for people to see who you are.

@LK1972

Sorry Hob, I'm feeling sad for you, as survivor of abuse you're probably constantly wondering if your physiological responses are correct or are hyper vigilance due to trauma. They are correct, every time. They are just sharper than most people's due to your lived experience. Your fear of men is your brain trying to keep you safe, it is never a prejudice. Listen to it, it will keep you safe in the future. And please read 'The gift of fear' by Gavin de Becker.

Thank you for above 🌸

Hi everyone - I'm here. I have read through everything. Just give me time to digest it and reflect it all. Thank you for taking the time.

Hobgoblin, I just saw this video by Arty Morty and I think it might help you to understand where the women on this thread are coming from.

"There is no platonic ideal transwoman"

I don't think Hobgoblin is coming back to the thread, but I would be interested to know if she has ever thought about why her instinct seems to be to prioritise men's feelings over women's feelings?

These men (who may or may not have gender identity issues) still have male biology and always will. Why are they more important than the women who don't want them in our spaces? Have you ever though about why you unquestioningly defend men's wants over women's needs?

Gosh, just when you think you've seen it all someone comes along and suggests that 'Muslim' is an antonym to 'woman'

Other signs of seeming cognitive dissonance: 'As a cis female I do have concerns about trans women using female only spaces but I also accept that this is mostly due to my own prejudices and fear about men'. Hobgoblin seems to suggest that rational risk assessment is prejudice now.

'Yes - men should not enter Womens spaces. Nor would they want to.' Apparently men do not want to enter women's spaces, ever. Thanks Hobgoblin, good to know, I feel much safer now.

Sorry Hob, I'm feeling sad for you, as survivor of abuse you're probably constantly wondering if your physiological responses are correct or are hyper vigilance due to trauma. They are correct, every time. They are just sharper than most people's due to your lived experience. Your fear of men is your brain trying to keep you safe, it is never a prejudice. Listen to it, it will keep you safe in the future. And please read 'The gift of fear' by Gavin de Becker.

Man alive. She made me want to scream.
I wonder if we'll ever get past the cognitive dissonance.

I've just read through the whole thread and I'm equal parts irritated by hobgoblin and worried that she feels compelled to overcome her 'prejudice'.
That Kool Aid must taste great.

That in built 'prejudice' keeps women on their toes. How many times have any of us been around a potentially volatile man and thought 'uh oh', and quickly extricated ourselves from their presence.

And as a PP wisely pointed out yesterday, she clearly knows and acknowledges that a trans woman is a man.

In fact, the ‘just want to pee’ tactic is also very indicative of the complete lack of knowledge that these males have of what goes on in the female toilets.

Anyone who had no option but to walk with their push chair or pram to the high street and get stocked on nappies, and other items that then had to be hung on that pram or push chair, while going to the toilet to deal with heavy and flooding periods knows that it is not just about ‘wanting to pee’. There is no way to use the toilet without the door jammed open.

Same with the plenty of other ‘not peeing’ moments in life such as dealing with clothes covered in baby puke, or tomato sauce requiring some attempt to dry clothes under hand dryers exposing body parts you don’t want to expose to any male, regardless of the seeming magic some posters like to tell us they believe about these people ‘just being another woman’.

No thanks. Bad enough dealing with the humiliation that other females see you in those vulnerable positions. At least there is some comfort in knowing a % of those women understand. No male can understand in any but very superficial depth.

Female toilets are not ‘just for peeing’. That is actually the most obvious falsehood in use of that phrase.

I'm sorry Hob has gone. I wanted to ask her, since she brought up the subject of Muslims, if Muslim women should be compelled to allow a transwoman into the women's prayer area at a mosque.

If you remove single sex spaces, it is women and girls who lose out every time. There are now men in women's prisons (these are male sex offenders with full male genitalia), men in women's sports teams (winning medals and trophies that should have belonged to women) and on and on. Men in women's rape crisis centres, where women who have already been victimised by men are now expected to welcome men into this space or be called hateful. Can you really not see the problems here?

It will never stop being wrong. True male domination.

Such a pity Nig Here’s tweets each linking to the masturbatory transitioned male porn while in female toilets videos.

It would seem appropriate to be able to link them here.

However, suffice to say instead that there is a reason that it is a fast growing porn category.

And it surely dispels the myth that these males ‘just want to pee’.

HobgoblinGold you are making a false comparison with race segregation and sex segregation. Historically, race segregation happened because white people (the dominant group) enforced it, in an attempt to uphold supremacy.

Single sex spaces for women are not comparable - the are not in place because of discrimination where we keep men out because of prejudice. These spaces (including bathrooms, changing rooms, prisons, sports teams) have been fought for by women to allow privacy, dignity and safety and fairness away from men (the dominant group).
This is because while we know that of course most men are not predators, we also know that it is predominantly men who offend against women, not the other way around. We know this, statistically it is something like 98% of sex offenders are men, and it's not some random coincidence.

If you remove single sex spaces, it is women and girls who lose out every time. There are now men in women's prisons (these are male sex offenders with full male genitalia), men in women's sports teams (winning medals and trophies that should have belonged to women) and on and on. Men in women's rape crisis centres, where women who have already been victimised by men are now expected to welcome men into this space or be called hateful. Can you really not see the problems here?

@HobgoblinGold

*Women, including TW, should be able to use female loos.

How would one actually stop TW from using female looks anyway? How would you honestly know?*

Please take a minute to watch this (from 3.33 to 4.29)

I have no doubt that the man/TW in the clip thought he was indistinguishable from women. If I was in an enclosed space and this man/TW came in, I would feel alarmed. I have posted this because I think a really good point is made - that when some of these men are 'dressed' and put their make up on, they really can't see themselves as male - but the rest of us do. The silence from women in any supposed female only spaces that they entered would be taken as proof of passing, when nothing could be further from the truth.

I thought that too dial.

How would one actually stop TW from using female loos anyway? How would you honestly know?

Is anyone tired of seeing this tired old trope? Usually deployed as the ultimate gotcha?

How would you honestly know?

This is the thin wedge tactic.

So because in the tiny number of cases where a male has either had puberty blockers, had full feminization surgery (incredibly rare in the UK), voice training on top of larynx surgery, and naturally small hands and feet plus a way to disguise their gait, females should abandon all hope of having female only single sex spaces.

hob if you lack the ability to correctly sex someone in the huge majority of times you might encounter a transitioned male, that is on you. And if you are merely repeating what many transitioned males wish to be true but is not, that is also on you.

My sight is poor at distance, all I can see is movement and not details of clothes, hair etc. I am 99% accurate in working out whether it is a male or female by the time they come into focus.

Even up close, unless they have really had all the feminisation surgery available, the proportions of their face is often a tell.

But you are only talking from your own experience, obviously and I am sorry to hear you cannot tell the difference. It is an intuitive tool that females have and very useful.

How would one actually stop TW from using female loos anyway

And this old chestnut. I thought the trans activist community had moved on from using it. Because it was rather transphobic to say this group would knowingly use the female toilets despite understanding that by doing so they caused some women distress. Because it showed how disrespectful some transitioned males were.

Please do tell us hob how women have ‘policed’ their female toilets in the relatively short time we have had them. (Because it is only a short time, look up ‘urinary leash.’)

How have females and society in general done this?

Then please also tell us why transitioned males will be so disrespectful as to know they are not welcomed into a female single sex space and yet still use that space?

It is a great thing that we know there are some transitioned males who understand this and who respect this by using other alternatives. Which transitioned males are you speaking for here?

I find it ironic that HobgoblinGold has brought up Muslims as there will be many Muslim women and girls who will be excluded from their own single sex spaces should they become mixed sex which is what HobgoblinGold is promoting.

‘I’ feel TW are not men though

Can you please be very specific in the ways transitioned males are not men please?

I have been reading this thread and I cannot quite work out what you believe changes.

I’ feel TW are not men though and as such can use female loos.

Why? Just because they say so?

Males making decisions for females on what is best for them

nothing new there

its called male entitlement no matter how you present yourself or feel

Transwomen face their own kind of oppression. Completely separate and different to female oppression of course.

I see Hobgoblin has now reached the ultimate end point of these discussions, which always come down to the mantra that «men are women». There is no logical argument for men to use women’s spaces, so having failed to make any, in the face of many logical challenges, Hobgoblin resorts to untruth.

Hobgoblin, you acknowledged earlier that you felt uncomfortable when you saw an obvious man in a woman’s space. How can you bear the cognitive dissonance? The very fact that you have that instinctive response means that you know perfectly well that this person is not female and shouldn’t be there. I can’t really understand how you can wobble on the edge of that knowledge, but then return to lying to yourself.

Still, each to his own. I guess I used to ignore my own screaming conscience as well, but now I’ve stopped and will not go back, because ignoring that is what causes you to let abusers into your life.

Yes quite!

A female Muslim, yes. A male Muslim, no. Trying to shoehorn the word Muslim in, in order to just create a general feeling of inequality!

And this is what these people end up doing. They end up talking claptrap, or defending rapists in women's prisons, sex offenders in women's spas and men who are happy to violate women's boundaries. And no one can tell anyone's sex apparently. With the justifications ranging from the nonsensical to the downright unhinged.

Because there is no justification.

The bottom line is, just do it, because we say so.

If you feel that Tw should be allowed to use women's facilities, then you can welcome them into these facilities when you are the only woman using them. You can give consent for yourself.

You cannot give consent for other women. If any women do not consent to share women's spaces with males, you do not get to override them just because you don't mind.

Interesting that in all this worrying about transwomen’s safety in male loos there is no discussion of the safety of young boys, who from the age of around 8 are expected to use male public toilets alone, and sadly sexual assault and even rape are regular occurances. Logically if transwomen need to be in the female loos, so do all young males. But then again teenage boys also carry out a lot of sexual assault crimes, as indeed do transwomen. Gets complicated eh.

Maybe we should just get some shit hot facial recognition technology and a competent police force who care about crimes against women and children 🤔