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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

284 replies

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/06/2022 15:14

So last night at the jubilee street party I canvassed opinion from some men, as wide an age range as I could. I asked them what they would do if they encountered a MTF person in a mans loo or changing room.

The consensus seemed to be ‘ it depends on them’. If they looked like a woman, that is, they were smaller than most men, slightly framed, dressed in an appropriate way they would expect a woman to be in the venue where they were for example a supermarket or a cinema , they would just point out that this was the ‘gents’. Most would be taken aback but not cross.

If there was some cognitive dissonance, that is, if the person had a masculine build and heft * whilst being dressed in what one referred to as a ‘girly’ way, so not unisex jeans and trainers, they would ‘ zip up and bolt’ . They might try to use a cubicle.

No one proposed attacking or even challenging them. ‘ keep well clear, you don’t know what might happen’ was the response to the suggestion of confrontation.

Of course it was a small sample, in a middle class area with middle aged men. But they seemed to feel threatened rather than threatening.

*when I suggested that some women might present convincingly as a man in that situation, they laughed!

OP posts:
HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:20

@MaudeYoung

For me - I have a problem with asserting that trans women are equal to men who perpetuate violence against women.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/06/2022 16:19

If someone feels like a woman inside and goes through all the necessary steps to try and become this

How do they feel "like a woman"? How would a male know they felt anything different than how a man would feel?

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:18

@GCRich

(1) No-one is transitioning, they are LARPing

Some do and so what if some do larp? Are all larps perverts?

(2) Because they are re-enforcing retrogressive sex based stereotypes.

They? All of them? Really?

(3) Because they are denying women's rights of association and destroying their other sex based rights

There are some trans women who are very vocal, the same can be said for cos female and cos males and trans men too.

(4) Because they are denying the right of lesbians and gay men to identify as same sex attracted

Some do

(5) Because they lie
(6) Because they refuse to debate in good faith
(7) Because they are appalling social media troll and abusers
(8) Because they deny science
(9) Because they encourage vulnerable teens (often autistic or with other mental health issues down an unproven medical pathway that will leave them sterile and may leave them mutilated and unable to orgasm)
(10) Because they are unconcerned about the way they are risking the rights of more reasonable long term "old school" transsexuals who are being caught in the backlash of an insane ideology

I have been through the list and realise my answer is the same for all of them. You seem to put all trans women in the same camp? Is this correct?

MaudeYoung · 03/06/2022 16:16

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:34

As a cis female I do have concerns about trans women using female only spaces but I also accept that this is mostly due to my own prejudices and fear about men (understandably).

Is it not also about consent? Many men frequently say that some men who claim they are not men have been using women's spaces for decades "without issues". The fact of the matter is that these men have inserted themselves into female spaces against our consent. We have never been asked. It has been done to us, regardless of any boundaries we may choose to set for ourselves for privacy, human dignity or safety. Such men assume that the silence of women is acquiescence when, in reality, it is much more likely to be genuine fear of consequences because of male aggression.

They also say that this is what the law says. That such men have the legal right to use women's spaces. This is not what the law says in any way at all. Such men just violate the boundaries of women because they choose to and terrify many women when they do it.

GCRich · 03/06/2022 16:15

SunThroughTheCloudsAt6am · Today 16:13

Did you read any of the links? Because the top 5 of them contribute to this discussion - Intimate partner violence, Domestic violence - not public loos. And I don't have time to go further since you just seem to be chucking out links in the hopes that we won't read them and realise they're irrelevant to the discussion.

To be fair, random irrelevant links is a relatively decent performance compared to a typical TRA "rape threat with girl dick" approach.

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 03/06/2022 16:15

indeed Tasteful. Any read of the trans widows threads would show the truth of this “violence”

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 16:14

But all are about the topic. This area is massively under researched which I feel only fuels the fear.

They're "about the topic" but they don't back up your point. And I don't see how you think the area is "massively under researched." There's a shit ton of research. However, the political climate in academia ensures that it is all of very poor quality.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:14

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think you know what it means?

If someone feels like a woman inside and goes through all the necessary steps to try and become this - why should I be angry with this. I cannot imagine how difficult it is to live with this. The same is true the other way too.

GCRich · 03/06/2022 16:14

This reply has been deleted

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SunThroughTheCloudsAt6am · 03/06/2022 16:13

Did you read any of the links? Because the top 5 of them contribute to this discussion - Intimate partner violence, Domestic violence - not public loos. And I don't have time to go further since you just seem to be chucking out links in the hopes that we won't read them and realise they're irrelevant to the discussion.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 16:12

basically there is no measurable effect because the sample size is too low. No wonder the Williams institute

Ugh what is with my typing today. No wonder the Williams Institute don't host the "study" on their website and expect people to email their communications team if they want to read it. It's really fucking dodgy behaviour putting out a press release with figures that they want the press to quote, backed up by a study that, it turns out, does not back up the figures.

But entirely typical. Hobgoblin are you able to see how much propaganda you've fallen for? Trans activist organisations like the Williams Institute wouldn't be pulling stunts like this if they actually had facts on their side.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:12

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

But all are about the topic. This area is massively under researched which I feel only fuels the fear.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/06/2022 16:09

people transitioning into something that feels more right for them

What does that even mean?

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:05

@Roseglen84

I don't feel it's a solidarity with men but with people transitioning into something that feels more right for them. Why should I be angry about this?

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 16:04

Transgender women and men had higher rates of violent victimization (86.1 and 107.5 per 1000 persons, respectively) than did cisgender women (23.7 per 1000 persons; OR= 3.88; 90% CI = 0, 8.55)

that's from the full text of the Williams Institute "study" as linked in the thread by EmbarassingHadrosaurus.

basically there is no measurable effect because the sample size is too low. No wonder the Williams institute Though tbh that's a little surprising, I'd expect trans people to be younger and more concentrated in urban areas so you'd think there would be some increased vulnerability to crime based on demographics. Perhaps the fact that trans people are nearly all white cancels it out.

GCRich · 03/06/2022 16:03

No man has ever entered a woman's space. Men destroy women's spaces as their leading foot starts to cross the threshold.

GCRich · 03/06/2022 16:02

@HobgoblinGold

You seem to know a lot about the TRA position and are much more educated that most TRAs (I don;t want to stereotype but a lot of them come across as violent and unhinged and not very bright). Perhaps you could contribute to this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556955-the-stonewall-position-justified-using-facts-logic-reason-and-compassion

FWIW I used to be all "TWAW, be kind" - my position switched when I started hearing good gender critical arguments and realised that the opposite side of the #nodebate has absolutely #noargument, which kinda made #nodebate make sense

Roseglen84 · 03/06/2022 16:02

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:00

@MrsTerryPratchett

Yes I would extend it. BUT I think the fact that people can self identify is a problem. I do believe there needs to be more rigour in when an individual can legally change sex and therefore be legally allowed to use sex specific spaces.

Single sex spaces cease to exist if they admit both men and women.

Roseglen84 · 03/06/2022 16:00

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:58

@terryleather

I have no idea what you're referring too. Menz?

terryleather is pointing out that you clearly seems to have more sympathy with men who invade women's spaces than women who object to them being there.

These are men, no matter how they dress or feel or what they call themselves, they are and always will be men. And we don't want any men in women's spaces. Not even the ones who think they are so special the rules don't apply to them.

It's always women who are expected to compromise, move over, budge up when men's feelings are in play.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:00

@MrsTerryPratchett

Yes I would extend it. BUT I think the fact that people can self identify is a problem. I do believe there needs to be more rigour in when an individual can legally change sex and therefore be legally allowed to use sex specific spaces.

GCRich · 03/06/2022 15:59

HobgoblinGold · Today 15:43

Where is the sister solidarity in this?

Not from the TW that is for sure. When I have been online and asked I have been utterly SHOCKED at how TWs sense of womanhood is 100% personal and literally nothing to do with some sense of sesterhood with women.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:58

@terryleather

I have no idea what you're referring too. Menz?

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:57

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

I could carry on - there's loads of scientific articles.

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