Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

Trans women are more likely than there cos female counterparts to experience violence, more likely to experience mental health issues, suicide to name a few.

and this is women’s problem because?

I think a third space would definitely help women, men can then start subdividing their own spaces and sorting out problems of male violence among themselves instead of leaving it to women.

While zemmiphobic has my utmost sympathy, I agree male violence is widespread and a human life crisis. People need protecting. All people.

It's also important to recognise how women and girls are put at far greater risk when men are permitted into women's spaces.

I am sympathetic to transwomen who experience abuse.

My sympathy lies equally with the school girl violently raped by a male trans student in the girl's bathroom who's school covered it up and accused her dad of transphobia.

With the woman raped in the woman's ward in hospital by a male trans patient who's hospital covered it up saying "no males were present so a rape couldn't have happened".

With the mentally ill woman who was raped in her women's unit by a male trans patient, where staff covered it up accusing the woman of being "mad".

With all the women currently being abused, and raped by males in women's prisons everywhere, which is happening, and with any woman or girl anywhere who ever has to accept competing against men in their own sporting category, ever, anywhere.

Destroying women's rights is not the answer. It's not the solution. We've tried it, we've seen the results.

Trans rights organisations need to back off and change track, stop with the lying and stealth. Transwomen have their own obvious needs but you need to leave women and our rights out of it.

Trans women are more likely than there cos female counterparts to experience violence, more likely to experience mental health issues, suicide to name a few.

Probably because Tw are male, and males are more likely than females to experience violence, more likely to experience mental health issues, suicide to name a few.

A problem not solved by designating women as service-humans for males, but by encouraging men to access mental health services, and by reduction of opportunities for men to perpetrate violence.

"Women, including TW, should be able to use female loos".

Well, TW are men.

If you read that quote back and substitute your "TW" with "men", you will see how ridiculous it sounds.
Because it is.

Men are not a subset of women. Effeminate men are not a subset of women. Men who have been attacked by other men are not a subset of women. Gay men are not a subset of women.
It is not up to women to solve male violence or to make room for fearful men in their own spaces.
And just because you yourself don't care, it doesn't mean that there are not many many more women who DO.

Not all men perpetuate violence and therefore should not be treated as such

Separate spaces for women does not suggest that all men perpetuate violence. Why do you think it does?

Women, including TW, should be able to use female loos.

But then what's the purpose of a 'female' loo? The vast majority of women have nothing in common with a TW that they don't with any other male. So this appears to be an argument for abolishing all single-sex spaces. Can you tell us why you think we need 'female only' loos if there is no common characteristic (other than being human) that the people who use those loos share?

I'm so sorry to hear this. That's an awful experience and I can see why you feel like you want to use a third space. My sister was raped by men who were in the women's toilets. As transwomen continue with male pattern offending, I think it's easy to see why, despite your experience (and I don't believe you are the only one), most women still feel any male (trans or not) should not be in the female toilet.

And having read that article it states that the types of crime are not identified. Which is a shame . I guess that murder by a partner isn’t one of them, because that appears to be a crime almost entirely perpetrated on women by their male partners. Three a week seems to be the average.

I have absolutely no problem believing that some trans women (a.k.a. "people who read 'male' but present 'feminine'") are at a heightened risk of violence in all male environments. Frankly, it makes a certain amount of sense:

Women (the female, cunty types) would suffer from misogyny, true. We would also "benefit" from benevolent sexism - that thing that boys are taught: "we don't hit girls!".

This doesn't mean that violence against women isn't real (it is).

It's just: I can see how "presenting feminine" but, at the same time, not displaying any of the markers that halfway decent men have been taught to take as "don't fight - gentlemen don't do that!" could conceivably mark you out as a more "acceptable" victim.

It's just: none of that is on women. It's still a "male violence" issue! And, as such, it's still on men to resolve, not on us!

I'm sorry, this is just not true.

People can have elevated responses due to trauma that are inaccurate and debilitating.

Even for people who have not had a trauma, our responses are not always accurate. They need to be subjected to our judgement.

@Zemmiphobic it is horrible what you went through and it absolutely should not happen.
Allowing anyone to self ID into the women's toilets means that those violent men could follow you into the women's and assault you and any women in there so that is clearly not the solution.
3rd spaces are the only thing that offer safety and dignity for everyone.

@Zemmiphobic , I’m sorry about what you’ve experienced.

And you are right too. It IS about toxic masculinity and men, as a group, using violence just for the fun of it. It is about them also knowing they can get away with murder (as seen with the ought sentence they had - I supposed at least they got caught).

So yes transpeople need to be protected from that. No doubt about it.
Its just nit ok to do so whilst putting Women safety at risk because some men will have no issue abusing the system.
It needs to be a solution that protects EVERYONE.

I too am sorry that happened to you Zemmi. It was lucky there was evidence to secure a prosecution, however lightly they got off.
As other people have said, it is male on male and women are not responsible for fixing it. Please also consider the disabled who have their hard won spaces turned into accessible toilets.

Why is men's violence women's problem to solve?

I'm very sorry that happened to you @Zemmiphobic - it really shouldn't have. But are correct that the issue is toxic masculinity and the problem is with males and male violence. It doesn't mean that anyone who has (or ever had) a penis should use the ladies toilets.

I'd advocate for a 3rd space - people with penises (whether now or in the past) should never ever have access to women's spaces, including toilets, refuges, changing rooms, prisons, women's sports etc etc.

And you have our utmost sympathy @Zemmiphobic.

However that does not mean you, or any other trans identifying male, should be granted access to the woman's facilities.

Women are not emotional support humans for gender dysphoric males.

I was assaulted in men's toilets in 2019 prior to surgery/GRC. There were 2 men, who were obviously friends, who clocked me.

As I went into a cubicle, they started talking about me. Slurs, both homophobic and transphobic. As I left the cubicle and washed my hands I noticed one of them was blocking my exit and as I walked out to leave I was subjected to more insults.

The man blocking the entrance wouldn't let me past, and as I tried to squeeze past him he punched me on the side of the head, knocking me into the wall. As I tried to right myself he punched me again, this time on the side of the face, cutting my lip and (as it later turned out, loosening one of my teeth).

I fell and he walked out with his friend laughing. His friend decided to kick me in the kidney area for good measure as he then walked out.

Both were caught on CCTV after leaving the toilets. Both were arrested, charged, and got away with community service and a fine.

After that I never used male toilets again because I was too terrified to. I started using disabled facilities.

You'll probably say this was male-on-male violence or this has nothing to do with women because it's toxic male masculinity, or it's a men's problem. But this happened to me just because I'm trans. I just needed to pee.

The only difference? It was about trans women, I simply substituted the ‘group’.

For absolute clarity. You didn’t ‘simply substitute the ‘group’.

You tried to swap out a group of males and use a group containing females as a ‘gotcha’.

Please tell us what other group of females are excluded from female toilets?

The only difference? It was about trans women, I simply substituted the ‘group’.

Are you really, truly struggling with this?

You seem to have forgotten that 50% of Muslims are female.

Obviously Muslims can be welcomed into a female only space and have it still be a female only space. If they’re female.

I can’t believe you genuinely don’t understand this. I’ve noticed before that belief in trans ideology seems to impair people’s reasoning ability. But this is very simple.

I think that posters who use race and religion to support their analogies simply cannot see their own fail in logic.

It is clear to us and to readers though. Because we have seen it before. We have debunked it before.

It is as false an analogy now as it was the thousands of times we have seen it.

muslim females = females

transitioned males = still male

If you choose not to answer the questions asked of you to detail specifically how transitioned males have become females, ask yourself why?

is it because you know that it is impossible? Or is it that you know that the paltry evidence based on more falsity and emotional manipulation that you allowed yourself to be convinced by cannot stand even basic scrutiny?

Hence the offensive false equivalence of using Muslim women the way they were used here.

You can’t substitute the group and it still make a salient point though.

It ends up being complete rubbish.

For example,

If a group of disabled people created a space where they could meet up with one another and discuss their struggles and make plans to overcome them, and an able bodied person started attending and joining in with those conversations, it would no longer be a safe space for disabled people to meet and organise.

Your analogy is :

If a group of disabled people created a space where they could meet up with one another and discuss their struggles and make plans to overcome them, and a gay person (or black person, or woman, or any other person from a different oppressed group) started attending and joining in with those conversations, it would no longer be a safe space for disabled people to meet and organise.

It doesn’t make sense because there are gay disabled people, black disabled people, female disabled people etc.

The only shared defining feature needed to attend their group would be the fact they are disabled.

Similarly, Muslim women are female so it would still be a female only space if they entered it. The shared defining feature needed to enter a female space would be that they are female. Religion, race, sexuality, anything else is irrelevant.

@TheWeeDonkey

It's interesting that got deleted. Because that was the whole point in the fact it was highlighting just how utterly discriminative the originally comment was. The only difference? It was about trans women, I simply substituted the ‘group’.

HobgoblinGold

I am curious as to how you feel that you should be able to mis-gender people with the use of "cis" yet mis-gendering a trans person is 'literal violence'.

Hi.

I'd like you to read this:

Males are simultaneously very dangerous [to males who identify as women in male spaces] and absolutely safe [to females in female spaces].

How is it possible to be both?

You mean this one hobgoblin ?

I think that was the stage where you should have read back, deleted, put the wine glass down and gone to bed.

It was a terrible analogy, it made no sense and was deeply racist and offensive. You wanna do that there are plenty of other spaces on MN for your casual racism. As it is you're wrong, once a man enters a female only space it stops being a female only space by the fact that the man is there.
The only problem I see is that you don't have a problem with comparing Muslim women with male born people.