Argentina, gender self-id and risk to women

This is not directly about the topic of this thread, but it is very much about it in the sense that people extremely frequently misuse statistics in this debate and that many of the most often quoted statistics are, in fact, false, or at least applied to a group of people they don't apply to.

If you have ever studied how life expectancy figures are created, you will immediately spot that the assumed life expectancy of 32 for trans women in Argentina should ring all your alarm bells (as a value this low for some demographic group is almost always caused by incredibly high infant and child mortality rates).

I have emailed the source given here to get the link to that 2017 survey in Buenos Aires, to see how they could calculate that figure.

My preliminary hunch is that this is just referring to a slightly different survey of the Americas which lists a finding that when trans women are murdered in South Africa, they are murdered at young ages. (scroll down to page 5 which states that 80% of those trans women who were murdered were under 35).

I may be wrong about this, but I suspect that the statement:
"Of murdered trans women eighty percent were young."
has been misunderstood as this statement:
"Eighty percent of young trans women are murdered."

The two are not the same. Most trans women are not murdered, and the report I link to gives an overall number of homicides for the LGBT group in that survey as 594.

Assuming the two pieces of data the report discusses come from the same study.

If I find that the life expectancy figure the article quotes is actually correct, I will let you know.

It doesn’t seem especially positive when 70% are sex workers, with an average life expectancy of 32.

Argentina's self-id policy got a very passing mention in the Scottish Parliament's Equalities, Rights and Civil Justice Committee hearing on Tuesday. No one tried to make claims about the success or otherwise of the outcome, though.

When you talked about changing gender "on demand" did you mean, sb (anyone) waking up and going "oh, I'm going to become a woman today just because I feel like it?". I have to say, if that's what you meant -otherwise sb please correct me and I'll delete- I for one wouldn't feel reassured at all. How many pervs out there wouldn't jump on the chance to just became a woman so they could end up in a jail full of females (thinking Candyland! It's Christmas!). And there are jails where female inmates are allowed to keep the children with them for a while, I can't even imagine a pedophile showing up (not that there aren't female pedophiles because there are).
In Portugal you can change "gender" but at the end of the transitioning process- which is a long one, entails a lot of therapy and the whole process takes place under the supervision of a team of doctors (all with a different expertise). I'm not aware of anyone being able to change gender just because. Then again, this is the land where red tape was invented... Even changing one's name is a hassle, let alone changing gender.
Over here -and I'm going with what I read in the paper or watch on tv- transgenders are usually the victim not the perpretators.
This is a deeply conservative/religious country and a lot of people find it difficult to even be able to express themselves freely and tell the world they're gay. Heck my mom has a neighbour of almost 30 years who's gay (I won't get into how I know, that's irrelevant) and he sleeps on the couch, the wife's super unhappy yet they won't get a divorce. She gets up at 5am to argue with him in the living room so the kids won't hear them.
There's a long way to go here, regarding the rights of all LGBTQ people, let alone change gender on demand. Though, I have to add, I knew two (2!) women who were 100% lesbians in London -that sounds a bit crass but I'm just stating a fact (apologies to anyone offended)- who are now married to men. I do wonder whether they're happy or whether they've bowed down to the parents which I know was an issue for one of them.

Have you more information on this @sanluca

Details here for UK, Norway and Canada.

www.womenarehuman.com/are-women-really-committing-more-sex-offences-now/

A good video to watch on Christina Ellingsen from Norway on the situation there

she is now being prosecuted for 'wrong' tweets
reduxx.info/norwegian-feminist-facing-up-to-three-year-prison-sentence-over-tweets/

www.womenarehuman.com/are-women-really-committing-more-sex-offences-now/

«The same was applicable for Norway. There statistics showed hundreds of percentages increase in sex attacks on women by women. Because no one had informed the researchers 'woman' now also meant man.»

Have you more information on this @sanluca

How do you think self ID will impact life expectancy?

If a transwoman is legally counted as a woman, how on earth are there then supposed to be statistics telling us the results of this experiment?

It Never Happens, Argentina Edition:

https://www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-detainee-who-impregnated-fellow-inmate-is-released-from-prison-to-prevent-further-incident/

Awful to hear that Argentinian girls have so little access to education and that abortion was only recently legalised. You're right, I'm no expert in Argentinian culture.

You might want to look at the state of womens rights in several of these trailblazing countries OP.

This.
Male = not a woman. I don't give a stuff if they're Hayley Cropper or Creepy McCreepface. The answer is NO.

Life expectancy no, but surely if this law was for the benefit of transgender people you could realistically expect in ten years a change in economic and social status? Isn't that one of the reasons to do this change? Why else is it needed?

If you have stopped collecting statistics the 'problem' goes away.

As with most countries, feminist organisations do not all have the same stances or positions on 'gender' issues.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4281846-Feminism-in-Argentina

Another interesting sentence:

Much else in day-to-day life has not changed.
Discrimination and poverty rates are high among trans people, according to a 2017 survey by the Buenos Aires city government, with life expectancy at just 32 years against an average of 76.

So basically the law changed, but it hasn't improved anything for trans people. So a law has been implemented, that sometimes causes problems for another group and actually did nothing to improve the lives of the group it was meant for. So negative consequences and no positive. Crap law then

Interesting sentence:

Possibilities for misuse do exist in the self-ID law, but instances are rare, said Ana Clara Piechestein, a law professor at Buenos Aires University.
"For every law there's a loophole," she said.

Instances are rare. rare so they are there. But who cares, right? Sorry, this makes me so mad. As if not every woman counts

the lack of evidence for problems with self id is not because of the absence of issues and problems, but the fact no one cares about even more problems for women, so nothing is registered.

This.

Women's Declaration International channel on YT has Feminist Question Time videos with contributions from Argentina, Brazil and other comparable countries for anyone with a special interest in that region and the lived experience of women there.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWECmp5Tk3epYSkjs0qAKKQ

Argentina.

Where a woman is killed every 30 hours, it ranks mid class in the sex equality index because of lack of economic power and healthcare, where abortion has only been legalised since two years and is still unavaialbe for most... that Argertina?

Yes, I think the lack of evidence for problems with self id is not because of the absence of issues and problems but the fact no one cares about even more problems for women so nothing is registered.

The same was applicable for Norway. There statistics showed hundreds of percentages increase in sex attacks on women by women. Because no one had informed the researchers 'woman' now also meant man. If you don't register who does what, you can't gather evidence either way.